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Thread: Slavic Chronology

  1. #3091
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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    I know the Sorbs were heavy with L260, but it appears there was quite a bit of L1029, some subclades in particular. So, they must have migrated together, however far (or near) that migration was. L260 is better documented for its place of origins, but their correlation may give us an idea about the location of some L1029 subclades and L1029 in general.
    i came across an interresting bit of information from the yearbooks of metz (early 9th) and also featured in the 'yearbooks of einhard' likewise early 9th; it claims that in the year 748 pippin 'the younger' lead a campaign from thuringia against the saxons called nordosuavi and for this campaign slavic dukes (duces) supplied auxiliaries; this means that the slavs were now in an alliance with the franks and since it all took place in and around thuringia these slavs could well have been the sorbs as einhard explains in the vkm salam fluvium thuringos sorabos dividit the saale was in these days the borderriver

    maybe in that capacity (alliance with franks) the slavs moved into northeast bavaria; the necropolis of weissmain from the 8th-9th shows early slavic cermics as well as typical slavic female jewellery but it also feat two burials with swords and spurs (mid 8th) ? maybe in connection to the auxiliaries provided in that time period ? the 8th century is overall the timeperiod slavic ceramics etc. ie slavic settlements show up in northeast bavaria; data would be greatly apreciated

    i am only aware of the 123 sorbs from lusatia in rebala 2013 of which 70 were M458 (56.9%) and i have also read that the majority (smth like 2/3) are said to be L260; if that ratio is indeed true then it would still leave a good cut of CTS11962/L1029 even for the total of population; but above all the medieval samples ~1050-1250 from the wüstung krakau (saale) were likewise sorbs and all L1029 (M458); so a connection does indeed exist
    GENO2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA MYORIGINS 52WCEUROPE 40SEEUROPE 5BRITISHISLES 3WMIDEAST DNA.LAND 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN MYHERITAGE 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN GENEPLAZA 54.4NWEURO 37.6GRE/ALB 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LIVINGDNA 57.4S.GER 3.3NE.GER 25.8N.ITA 5S.ITA 4.3TUSCANY 2.5CYPRUS 1.7AEGEAN FTDNA 49.7 WESTERN EUROPE britain/ireland,cen.europe,scandinavia 50.3 SOUTHERN EUROPE ita-peninsula,greece&balkan,sardinia

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  3. #3092
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    Google translate:

    New information about the communities inhabiting the lands of Jarosław and Przemyśl 600 BC.

    Previously unknown information about peoples from the Scythian cultural circle, who inhabited the lands of Jarosław and Przemyśl 600 years before Christ, will be available on Tuesday at the Orsetti House Museum in Jarosław. It will be presented i.a. book about this topic.

    It is about the publication "Settlement of the community of the Scythian cultural circle in Hruszowice, state. 2, as part of the so-called of the Chotyniec agglomeration. Its authors are: Joanna Adamik-Proksa, PhD, Ewelina Ocadryga-Tokarczyk, MA, Tomasz Tokarczyk, MA (Institute of Archeology, University of Rzeszów), Wojciech Rajpold, PhD (Castle Museum in Sandomierz), Marcin Burghardt, PhD (Orsetti House Museum in Jarosław).

    The Scythians are a warlike nomadic people who came to Europe from the eastern steppes of Asia at the turn of the 8th and 7th centuries BC. He was inextricably linked with the history of Central and Eastern Europe, as well as the Middle East. The Scythians created a culture that left its mark on many other peoples, occupying an important place in history next to the Celts, just behind the Romans and Greeks.

    Archaeologist Dr. Marcin Burghardt reminded in an interview with PAP that a few years ago the whole archaeological world was amazed by discoveries in Chotyniec in the Jarosław district. It turned out that the gord located there, i.e. the remains of a defensive settlement surrounded by ramparts, is much older than previously thought.

    “The city was built over two and a half thousand years ago by groups of people associated with the ancient Scythian tribe, who came here from the territory of today's Ukraine. During archaeological research, the first and only Greek amphora preserved in its entirety in Poland, dated to the turn of the 7th and 6th centuries BC, was found there" - pointed out Dr. Burghardt, who participated in the archaeological research. He explained that the vessel served as a container for transporting wine, brought for the ritual feast to Chotyniec from the territory of today's Turkey.

    Further archaeological work showed that the peoples of the Scythian culture left much more traces than the settlement itself. It turned out that the smaller settlements surrounding the stronghold in Chotyniec, which were not of a defensive character, were permanently inhabited by people with a Scythian cultural face, who gathered in the hillfort mainly during annual ceremonies.

    “Archaeological research in the settlements near Chotyniec provides interesting information about the everyday life of people who came to our lands over two and a half thousand years ago. They complement the knowledge acquired from the analysis of the settlement itself" - the archaeologist pointed out.

    Works on Grodzisk in Chotyniec have been carried out since 2016. The entire course of the embankment was identified, the total length of which is over two kilometers. The entire fortification covers about 40 hectares.

    A number of settlements, similar to the one in Hruszowice, were also identified around, where materials of Scythian provenance were also found. Archaeologists indicate that we can talk about a kind of entire agglomeration, which is quite a spectacular discovery, because it clearly proves that large groups of people from the east settled in these areas. so-called The Chotyniec agglomeration is the most north-western enclave of the Scythian settlement.

    The archaeologist noted that earlier archaeological research in Hruszowice took place before the construction of the A4 motorway, and only later work on the fort in Chotyniec allowed the researchers to fully understand the nature of the discovered remains. In his opinion, among the finds from the settlements in Hruszowice, the objects constituting the equipment of the Scythian archer are particularly noteworthy - arrowheads, bone quiver fasteners.

    “There is also the first, and so far the only one in Poland, set of artefacts included in the horse harness from the Early Cytian period. These finds are very important because ancient historians write about the Scythians as mounted warriors who hit their opponents with a barrage of arrows" - emphasized Dr. Burghardt.

    Dr. Elżbieta Sieradzka-Burghardt from the Jarosław museum noticed that the settlement discovered at site 2 in Hruszowice is the first settlement of the Scythian cultural circle from south-eastern Poland, the full study of which was published in the form of a book.

    The first presentation of a new book about the settlement in Hruszowice “Settlement of the community of the Scythian cultural circle in Hruszowice, stan. 2, as part of the so-called of the Chotyniec agglomeration” will take place on Monday at the Institute of Archeology of the University of Rzeszów; the next day, on Tuesday, the promotion of the book was planned at the museum in Jarosław.

    The event in Jarosław is to be accompanied by a popular science seminar, where you will be able to listen to two short lectures. “The meeting will start with the presentation of the results of archaeological research in Hruszowice presented by the authors of the book. During the second lecture, we will hear about Scythian objects in the collection of the National Museum of the Przemyśl Land, which will be discussed by Magdalena Krzemińska from the Przemyśl museum and Dr. Marcin Burghardt" - indicated Dr. Sieradzka-Burghardt.

    The publication was co-financed by the Ministry of Culture and National Heritage from the Culture Promotion Fund. (PAP)

    https://naukawpolsce.pl/aktualnosci/...-jaroslawska-i

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  5. #3093
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    The Chotyniec agglomeration is a good place for Iranian loanwords to Proto-Slavic language.

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  7. #3094
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    The Chotyniec agglomeration is a good place for Iranian loanwords to Proto-Slavic language.
    No ambron, I explained it many times:

    Quote Originally Posted by bolek View Post
    There is strong connection of Indo-Iranian to Balto-Slavic:









    The romantic XIX century view that Slavs came from India or Iran has long been debunked.
    There were no special contacts between Iranian and Slavs, the common words or features must be referred to early Primitive Indo-Iranian only, (i.e. to Indo-Slavic):




    In other words, it is not true that there were migrations of Indo-Iranians to Poland, the opposite is true, that is there were migrations of Indo-Slavs from Poland to Central Asia and then as Indo-Iranians to India and Iran. It happened before 2000 BC.



    Quotations from T. Burrow “The Sanskrit Language”:

    https://goo.gl/mBeFD8
    And it has now been confirmed by genetics:


    https://i.postimg.cc/yKMGCmQq/CWC-BS-II.jpg

    We don’t know what languages were spoken at Chotyniec. There is no evidence of Iranian migrations to Poland. Scythians were a very mixed people. Slavic languages are more ancient than Iranian and show continuity from PIE. Slavs never left PIE homeland. Indo-Iranian languages emerged as a result of mixing Andronovo tribes with some Central Asian substratum.

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  9. #3095
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    Bolek, there is no consensus among linguists as to whether there is only a common Indo-Slavic linguistic heritage or whether there are Iranian loanwords to the Proto-Slavic language.

    Despite the evidence of hydronymy, some people moved the Slavic homeland to the east, on the basis of alleged Iranian loanwords to the Proto-Slavic language. After the discovery of Chotyniec, it is impossible to move the Slavic homeland further east than to south-eastern Poland, which is consistent with the evidence of hydronymy.
    Last edited by ambron; 11-30-2022 at 08:05 AM.

  10. #3096
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    Not sure if this was posted before - Kamenz Sorbs from Human Origins dataset.

    Sorb_Kamenz2, Sorb_Kamenz3, Sorb_Kamenz7 and Sorb_Kamenz9 have little to none German admixture.

    Distance to: Sorb_Kamenz2
    5.55723852 Sorb
    6.34618783 Polish_South
    6.36853986 Polish_Greater_Poland
    6.84941603 Polish_Lesser_Poland
    6.89039912 Polish_Podlaskie
    7.02598036 Polish_Subcarpathia
    7.26684251 Czech
    8.06836415 Polish_Silesia
    8.57691670 Polish_Kujavia
    8.59712161 Ukrainian_South
    8.60058719 Polish
    8.65121957 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
    8.68936707 Ukrainian_Galicia
    8.71469449 Slovak
    8.92323932 Polish_Mazovia
    8.95866061 Ukrainian_Northwest
    9.06648774 Ukrainian
    9.09333272 Ukrainian_North
    9.65237795 Russian_Southwest
    9.96474786 Hungarian_North
    10.23571688 Ukrainian_Carpathians
    10.42949663 Russian_Smolensk
    10.59236990 German_Northeast
    10.82764517 Lemko_Poland
    11.28384243 Slovene

    Distance to: Sorb_Kamenz3
    3.67876338 Ukrainian
    3.74139012 Ukrainian_North
    3.84438552 Ukrainian_Northwest
    4.00339856 Ukrainian_South
    4.11532502 Polish_Subcarpathia
    4.43961710 Polish_Silesia
    4.56798643 Polish_Mazovia
    4.87207348 Russian_Southwest
    4.91751970 Polish_South
    5.45057795 Polish_Lesser_Poland
    5.61807796 Polish_Greater_Poland
    5.64760126 Ukrainian_Galicia
    5.96058722 Polish
    6.35303077 Russian_Ryazan
    6.54034403 Polish_Podlaskie
    6.74165410 Russian_Smolensk
    7.34232933 Belarusian
    7.35238737 Polish_Kujavia
    7.46925699 Sorb
    7.90121510 Ukrainian_Carpathians
    7.96408815 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
    8.17874685 Russian
    8.60713657 Lemko_Poland
    8.85621815 Slovak
    9.28356074 Czech

    Distance to: Sorb_Kamenz7
    3.71784884 Polish_Greater_Poland
    3.77849176 Polish_Kujavia
    3.89436773 Polish_Podlaskie
    4.11745067 Polish
    4.37027459 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
    4.88251984 Polish_Lesser_Poland
    5.05108899 Polish_Mazovia
    5.55643771 Sorb
    5.75767314 Polish_South
    5.80188762 Russian_Smolensk
    5.93846782 Polish_Silesia
    6.08521980 Ukrainian_Northwest
    6.51042241 Ukrainian_North
    6.52057513 Polish_Subcarpathia
    6.57596381 Ukrainian
    6.81339856 Belarusian
    7.01757080 Russian_Southwest
    7.46577524 Ukrainian_South
    8.46775059 Russian_Ryazan
    8.52076874 Russian
    8.82596170 Estonian
    9.07896470 Ukrainian_Galicia
    9.53657695 Czech
    9.86971124 Lithuanian_Aukštaitija
    9.96082828 Russian_Kostroma

    Distance to: Sorb_Kamenz9
    2.76085132 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
    3.62637560 Polish_Lesser_Poland
    3.83340580 Polish_Kujavia
    3.86520375 Polish_Greater_Poland
    3.92002551 Polish
    4.48622336 Polish_Silesia
    4.80782695 Polish_South
    5.11270965 Sorb
    5.66624214 Polish_Mazovia
    6.31356476 Polish_Subcarpathia
    7.07472261 Ukrainian_Northwest
    7.58969696 Ukrainian
    7.73604550 Ukrainian_North
    7.82557985 Russian_Smolensk
    7.96516164 Ukrainian_South
    7.98466029 Ukrainian_Galicia
    8.00158109 Polish_Podlaskie
    8.74315732 Slovak
    8.80279501 Belarusian
    8.83441566 Czech
    9.07124578 Russian_Southwest
    9.70001546 Russian
    10.00027000 German_Northeast
    10.00702753 Russian_Ryazan
    10.34363572 Estonian

    Target: Sorb_Kamenz2
    Distance: 344.4122% / 3.44412230 | R3P
    79.0 Polish_Podlaskie
    15.4 Norwegian
    5.6 Lebanese_Druze

    Target: Sorb_Kamenz3
    Distance: 233.3052% / 2.33305229 | R3P
    47.6 Lithuanian_Aukštaitija
    47.2 Lemko_Poland

    5.2 Lezgin

    Target: Sorb_Kamenz7
    Distance: 179.9264% / 1.79926365 | R3P
    71.6 Sorb
    26.2 Latvian

    2.2 Chamar

    Target: Sorb_Kamenz9
    Distance: 135.1560% / 1.35155967 | R3P
    47.4 Lithuanian_Žemaitija
    39.2 Polish_South

    13.4 Basque_France

    Last edited by Waldemar; 12-01-2022 at 11:47 AM.

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  12. #3097
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    I've added a few more samples.

    Last edited by Waldemar; 12-01-2022 at 11:23 AM.

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    Poland Poland Pomerania
    Samples Sorb_Kamenz1, Sorb_Kamenz4, Sorb_Kamenz5, Sorb_Kamenz6 and Sorb_Kamenz8 have visible German admixture due to mating with German neighbours. These modern Sorbian samples are evidently more "western" than Medieval Krakauer Berg samples.

    Distance to: Sorb_Kamenz1
    3.18755392 Czech
    4.39169671 Sorb
    4.78614668 Slovak
    6.38811396 Slovene
    6.41895630 Polish_South
    6.42109804 Hungarian_North
    6.82495421 German_Northeast
    6.95068342 Polish_Lesser_Poland
    7.07154156 Austrian_Carinthia
    7.34780239 Polish_Greater_Poland
    7.57744020 Croat_Northern
    7.68849790 Ukrainian_Galicia
    7.99386640 Polish_Subcarpathia
    8.07697344 Austrian_Styria
    8.09316996 Polish_Silesia
    8.49838220 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
    8.52158436 Lemko_Poland
    8.69121395 Hungarian
    8.88690610 German_Southeast
    9.08033039 Ukrainian_Carpathians
    9.44395044 Polish_Kujavia
    9.68764161 Polish
    9.93888324 Ukrainian_South
    10.57356610 Croat
    10.89762818 Polish_Mazovia

    Target: Sorb_Kamenz1
    Distance: 166.5718% / 1.66571774 | R3P
    65.0 Polish_Greater_Poland
    29.6 Austrian_Burgenland
    5.4 Norwegian


    Distance to: Sorb_Kamenz4
    4.49538652 German_Northeast
    6.01640258 Sorb
    6.65334502 Czech
    8.60114527 Slovak
    8.79276407 Polish_South
    9.03015504 Polish_Greater_Poland
    9.15432685 Polish_Lesser_Poland
    9.23473876 German_Southeast
    9.44629028 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
    9.57101353 Slovene
    9.80951579 Hungarian_North
    9.90820367 Finnish_Southwest
    10.02384158 Austrian_Carinthia
    10.42154499 Austrian_Styria
    10.48642456 Polish_Kujavia
    10.68337962 Polish_Subcarpathia
    10.72945945 Polish_Silesia
    11.16328357 Swedish_Norrland
    11.16881820 Croat_Northern
    11.23599128 Ukrainian_Galicia
    11.31991608 Polish
    11.82695227 Polish_Podlaskie
    11.84540839 Hungarian
    11.91315659 Swedish_East-Svealand
    12.38143368 Lemko_Poland

    Target: Sorb_Kamenz4
    Distance: 208.3120% / 2.08311989 | R3P
    51.0 Polish_Podlaskie
    28.8 Swedish_West-Svealand
    20.2 Austrian_Burgenland


    Distance to: Sorb_Kamenz5
    4.81381346 German_Northeast
    5.88941423 Sorb
    6.57901968 Czech
    7.48004011 Slovak
    8.19555977 Polish_South
    8.26886328 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
    8.35049699 Slovene
    8.43244923 Polish_Lesser_Poland
    8.65128314 German_Southeast
    8.70317184 Polish_Greater_Poland
    9.06544538 Austrian_Styria
    9.28447629 Hungarian_North
    9.39770717 Austrian_Carinthia
    9.51946427 Polish_Silesia
    9.76836731 Polish_Kujavia
    10.25887908 Croat_Northern
    10.27977626 Ukrainian_Galicia
    10.34738131 Polish_Subcarpathia
    10.47563841 Polish
    10.57411935 Finnish_Southwest
    11.08650531 Lemko_Poland
    11.18062610 Hungarian
    11.94335799 German
    12.10852592 Ukrainian_Carpathians
    12.19559757 Swedish_East-Svealand

    Target: Sorb_Kamenz5
    Distance: 208.6271% / 2.08627140 | R3P
    61.4 Sorb
    30.8 German_Northeast
    7.8 Basque_France

    Distance to: Sorb_Kamenz6
    4.37546569 Sorb
    5.05876467 German_Northeast
    6.18176350 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
    6.57786440 Polish_Greater_Poland
    6.84518079 Polish_Lesser_Poland
    6.96680702 Czech
    7.22007618 Polish_Kujavia
    7.42192024 Polish_South
    7.54845017 Finnish_Southwest
    8.39307453 Polish
    8.66709294 Slovak
    8.76370356 Polish_Silesia
    9.09692256 Polish_Subcarpathia
    9.44373867 Polish_Podlaskie
    10.32705185 Polish_Mazovia
    10.36442473 Ukrainian_Galicia
    10.63231395 Slovene
    10.69417599 Hungarian_North
    11.10862278 Ukrainian_South
    11.26566465 Ukrainian_Northwest
    11.58769175 Ukrainian
    11.60240492 Austrian_Carinthia
    11.65469004 German_Southeast
    11.71520806 Ukrainian_North
    11.87924661 Swedish_Norrland

    Target: Sorb_Kamenz6
    Distance: 175.3661% / 1.75366100 | R3P
    64.2 Polish_Podlaskie
    31.8 Swedish
    4.0 Spanish_North

    Distance to: Sorb_Kamenz8
    4.54157462 Czech
    5.55942443 Sorb
    6.31457045 Slovak
    7.13632959 German_Northeast
    7.30087666 Slovene
    7.55788992 Hungarian_North
    8.03011831 Polish_South
    8.16547610 Polish_Lesser_Poland
    8.19548046 Austrian_Carinthia
    8.43569796 Polish_Greater_Poland
    8.71868683 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
    8.85586811 Croat_Northern
    9.13580867 Ukrainian_Galicia
    9.15846603 Polish_Subcarpathia
    9.27070116 Austrian_Styria
    9.32258548 Polish_Silesia
    9.53581145 German_Southeast
    9.74462929 Hungarian
    9.89326033 Polish_Kujavia
    10.15702712 Lemko_Poland
    10.29768906 Ukrainian_Carpathians
    10.50355178 Polish
    10.82914586 Ukrainian_South
    11.36556642 Polish_Podlaskie
    11.38134438 Finnish_Southwest

    Target: Sorb_Kamenz8
    Distance: 223.7180% / 2.23717985 | R3P
    66.4 Polish_Podlaskie
    19.0 Spanish_North
    14.6 Swedish
    Last edited by Waldemar; 12-01-2022 at 11:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Samples Sorb_Kamenz1, Sorb_Kamenz4, Sorb_Kamenz5, Sorb_Kamenz6 and Sorb_Kamenz8 have visible German admixture due to mating with German neighbours. These modern Sorbian samples are evidently more "western" than Medieval Krakauer Berg samples.
    Since you seem to know the admixture levels in different Polish groups pretty well, is German admixture in Poles from Podkarpacie generally more common than in other regions?

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    Polish
    aDNA Match (1st)
    SWE_Gotland_VA:VK474
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA009
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    DNK_Jutland_VA:VK340
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-L1029>YP263>Y2912*
    mtDNA (M)
    H141,U5a1b1j(W)

    Poland Poland Pomerania
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Since you seem to know the admixture levels in different Polish groups pretty well, is German admixture in Poles from Podkarpacie generally more common than in other regions?
    There's definitely Walddeutsche admixture in some Podkarpackie region samples. How common this admixture is...I don't know.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walddeutsche

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Waldemar For This Useful Post:

     Riverman (12-01-2022)

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