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Thread: Slavic Chronology

  1. #741
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    R-L1029>YP263>Y2912*
    mtDNA (M)
    H141,U5a1b1j(W)

    Poland Poland Pomerania
    And just a handful of Germanic peoples.

    Distance to: Swedish
    0.02420064 HUN_early_Avar:AN286
    0.03314443 HUN_late_Avar:TMH199
    0.03328492 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:SH12
    0.03535846 HUN_Hun_period:SZLA646
    0.03544949 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:PLE38
    0.03813987 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:SH106
    0.04272985 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:SH98
    0.04482808 HUN_early_Arpadian_commoner:MH106
    0.04652471 HUN_late_Avar:TMH509
    0.04669831 HUN_Conqueror_elite:SE64
    0.04769169 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:IBE206
    0.05107679 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:HMSZ157
    0.05415205 HUN_early_Arpadian_commoner:MH153
    0.05485012 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:PLE23
    0.05552919 HUN_early_Arpadian_commoner:VPB600
    0.05564672 HUN_late_Avar:TMH798
    0.05577471 HUN_late_Avar:TMH1273
    0.05578183 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:SZA29
    0.05670745 HUN_Conqueror_elite:AGY75
    0.05717823 HUN_early_Arpadian_commoner:IBE116
    0.05747182 HUN_Conqueror_elite:VPB167
    0.05853486 HUN_Conqueror_elite:AGY87
    0.05993801 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:HMSZ245
    0.06006222 HUN_early_Arpadian_commoner:NTH20
    0.06048250 HUN_early_Arpadian_commoner:MH88

    Distance to: Dutch
    0.01938287 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:SH106
    0.02171879 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:PLE38
    0.02454004 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:SH12
    0.02521041 HUN_early_Arpadian_commoner:MH106
    0.02734281 HUN_late_Avar:TMH199
    0.02761121 HUN_Hun_period:SZLA646
    0.03086430 HUN_late_Avar:TMH509
    0.03333070 HUN_early_Avar:AN286
    0.03518238 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:SH98
    0.04043355 HUN_late_Avar:TMH1273
    0.04162910 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:SZA7
    0.04302705 HUN_late_Avar:TMH798
    0.04356183 HUN_early_Arpadian_commoner:MH153
    0.04384225 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:HMSZ157
    0.04490271 HUN_early_Arpadian_commoner:IBE116
    0.04542822 HUN_early_Avar:SZOD1829
    0.04549544 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:HMSZ245
    0.04550019 HUN_early_Arpadian_commoner:NTH20
    0.04561410 HUN_Hun_period:SEI6
    0.04655865 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:PLE23
    0.04665546 HUN_Conqueror_elite:SE64
    0.04763711 HUN_early_Arpadian_commoner:MH88
    0.04811405 HUN_Conqueror_commoner:IBE206
    0.04837420 HUN_middle_Avar:TMH388
    0.04863962 HUN_Conqueror_elite:AGY87

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  3. #742
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    Two of the Avar era E-V13 carriers have about one quarter Germanic ancestry. So in the mix it is there.

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  5. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I have chosen CZE Early Slavic though, which is a bit admixed already. What's the best (least admixed, but not too much Baltic shifted, so just right for newly incoming Pannonian Slavs) currently available Slavic source? Still AV2?
    I made an average of some MA samples I thought were decent representatives of Slavs, also an average of the LBA-IA Slavic-like samples, and an average of them all, might not be perfect but atleast it's something. About the samples that might seem Baltic, I think those guys were just less admixed Slavs, and even then they're not exactly like Baltic MA, they're less "Northeastern"

    Code:
    LBA-IA_Slavic,0.124826,0.122202,0.0741673,0.0728903,0.0360067,0.0245423,0.0072067,0.0109227,-0.0017043,-0.0334707,-0.0043843,-0.0122893,0.0179383,0.0193593,-0.0102243,-0.0025633,0.009518,0.0007603,0.0035197,0.007295,-0.0022877,-0.0006183,0.0049707,-0.0127727,0.0009577
    MA_Slavic,0.1283355,0.1256719,0.0725956,0.0632272,0.039892,0.0245076,0.0088128,0.0114801,-0.0015595,-0.0221874,-0.0020098,-0.008074,0.015442,0.0244108,-0.013097,0.0007955,0.0049055,-0.0000316,0.0035666,0.0032828,-0.0033224,-0.0050851,0.00986,-0.0054524,0.001377
    
    LBA-MA_Slavic,0.1273784,0.1247255,0.0730243,0.0658626,0.0388324,0.0245171,0.0083747,0.0113281,-0.001599,-0.0252646,-0.0026574,-0.0092236,0.0161228,0.0230331,-0.0123135,-0.0001205,0.0061635,0.0001844,0.0035538,0.004377,-0.0030402,-0.0038669,0.0085265,-0.0074488,0.0012626
    Samples used:

     
    Code:
    CZE_LBA_Knoviz:I16089___BC_1050___Coverage_69.35%,0.120652,0.122879,0.067882,0.056848,0.036007,0.022869,0.006815,0.009,-0.001227,-0.029158,-0.005846,-0.008842,0.013082,0.008533,-0.008279,0.002917,0.004824,0.001267,0.010182,0.003877,-0.000624,0.00136,0.005176,-0.007832,-0.004311
    HUN_IA_La_Tene_o:I18226___BC_260___Coverage_64.76%,0.127482,0.118817,0.07467,0.074613,0.029236,0.022032,0.007285,0.007846,-0.00634,-0.037358,0,-0.012889,0.019475,0.026424,-0.011129,0.000133,0.011083,-0.000253,-0.003645,0.003001,-0.003244,0.00136,0.005669,-0.005302,0.002634
    HUN_IA_La_Tene_o3:I25524___BC_225___Coverage_69.57%,0.126344,0.12491,0.07995,0.08721,0.042777,0.028726,0.00752,0.015922,0.002454,-0.033896,-0.007307,-0.015137,0.021258,0.023121,-0.011265,-0.01074,0.012647,0.001267,0.004022,0.015007,-0.002995,-0.004575,0.004067,-0.025184,0.00455
    
    HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2___AD_602___Coverage_67.06%,0.134311,0.126941,0.081458,0.065569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0.004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5.00E-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
    KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro:DA29___AD_1400___Coverage_57.79%,0.134311,0.123895,0.076555,0.06783,0.044624,0.026774,0.013161,0.01223,-0.003681,-0.036083,-0.011367,-0.012139,0.025718,0.027937,-0.019272,-0.001326,0.010431,-0.00114,0.003771,0.013381,-0.00025,-0.007666,0.008874,-0.007591,0.006826
    RUS_Sunghir_MA:Sunghir6___AD_1137___Coverage_98.79%,0.129758,0.116786,0.070899,0.060078,0.041238,0.018965,0.009165,0.011307,0.001432,-0.017859,0.000487,-0.008093,0.014271,0.023809,-0.014658,-0.005834,0.00013,-0.002154,0.000628,-0.001251,-0.007986,-0.005812,0.012695,-0.010724,-0.005868 
    VK2020_RUS_Kurevanikha_VA:VK160___AD_1100___Coverage_76.78%,0.127482,0.122879,0.078818,0.072029,0.044931,0.037092,0.004935,0.016615,-0.0045,-0.030616,-0.000974,-0.01154,0.019029,0.024772,-0.0095,-0.001326,-0.001956,-0.003167,0.009553,5.00E-04,-0.001747,-0.003215,0.010476,0.00241,0.004191
    VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK474___AD_975___Coverage_78.60%,0.126344,0.135065,0.072407,0.07106,0.049548,0.018128,0.00705,0.009461,0.003886,-0.021322,0.001461,-0.009891,0.016947,0.030415,-0.012351,0.01432,0.016689,0.002407,0.001383,0.003877,-0.012852,-0.003957,0.008504,-0.004458,-0.00491
    VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA:VK397___AD_1050___Coverage_73.26%,0.126344,0.127957,0.077687,0.06783,0.041546,0.029005,0.014336,0.008307,-0.003068,-0.01713,-0.005684,-0.005395,0.001338,0.015138,-0.001086,0.006099,0.012256,0.003421,0.004148,0.004377,0.002246,-0.002597,0.005793,-0.001687,0.000479
    VK2020_UKR_Chernigov_VA_o:VK542___AD_1050___Coverage_69.22%,0.120652,0.125926,0.060339,0.047804,0.026159,0.012271,0.005405,0.011307,-0.006749,-0.016401,0.001461,-0.004046,0.017096,0.030552,-0.016422,-0.003713,-0.011735,-0.002534,0.002388,0.003252,-0.000749,-0.001607,0.005793,-0.00723,0.007544
    VK2020_UKR_Lutsk_MA:VK541___AD_1250___Coverage_91.42%,0.127482,0.125926,0.062602,0.053618,0.035699,0.02008,0.00658,0.016845,-0.0045,-0.015308,0.000974,-0.008093,0.016947,0.02202,-0.016286,0.001989,0.007562,-0.001647,-0.002011,0.001626,-0.006738,-0.013107,0.012941,-0.00723,0.00012

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  7. #744
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    Quote Originally Posted by chum View Post
    I made an average of some MA samples
    VK160 is Uralic-shifted, while DA29 seems to be a Medieval Balt (?).
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-23-2022 at 11:25 AM.

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  9. #745
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    VK160 is Uralic-shifted, while DA29 seems to be a Medieval Balt (?).
    Yeah that's what I meant for the samples kinda similar to modern Lithuanians (who are Slav-admixed themselves) we have MA samples from Lithuania (who are more like Baltic BA) and they are different to the modern Lithuanian-like MA samples

    Code:
    Lithuania_Bailuliai:R10840___AD_339___Coverage_52.47%,0.132035,0.132019,0.093149,0.105299,0.048932,0.037929,0.011751,0.016615,-0.008795,-0.04319,0.000325,-0.016935,0.031813,0.039635,-0.013843,0.009016,0.008214,0.00038,0.005656,0.003252,-0.003244,-0.00915,0.007272,-0.010483,-0.000718
    Lithuania_Marvele:R10838___AD_468___Coverage_56.32%,0.135449,0.121864,0.091263,0.105945,0.048624,0.038766,0.012456,0.010384,-0.007363,-0.043919,-0.004872,-0.017684,0.030178,0.03358,-0.011265,0.003713,0.012778,-0.004561,0.003394,0.007504,0.000374,-0.000742,0.003574,-0.010122,-0.001676
    I think the Uralic shift in VK160 isn't significant enough to make it unusable for the average but you could take it out if you want

  10. #746
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Baltic woman??

    Distance to: HUN_early_Avar:CSB9
    0.02441369 Latvian:latvian54H7
    0.02754660 Latvian:latvian22J5
    0.02890770 Lithuanian_VZ:LTG-587
    0.02941048 Lithuanian_PZ:LTG-293
    0.03155985 Lithuanian_PZ:LTG-748
    0.03244993 Lithuanian_PZ:LTG-773
    0.03247275 Lithuanian_VZ:LTG-935
    0.03269053 Lithuanian_RA:LTG-225
    0.03283158 Lithuanian_PZ:LTG-759
    0.03483188 Lithuanian_SZ:LTG-1123
    0.03623571 Lithuanian_PZ:LTG-895
    0.03665315 Lithuanian_RA:LTG-21
    0.03668490 Lithuanian_VZ:LTG-592
    0.03678466 Lithuanian_RA:LTG-325
    0.03698466 Lithuanian_SZ:LTG-1127
    0.03706573 Belarusian:Belarusian2
    0.03716651 Lithuanian_SZ:LTG-678
    0.03745758 Lithuanian_PA:LTG-396
    0.03747877 Lithuanian_PZ:LTG-1099
    0.03777026 Lithuanian_VZ:LTG-529
    0.03829072 Lithuanian_SZ:LTG-1112
    0.03830662 Lithuanian_SZ:LTG-918
    0.03835464 Lithuanian_RA:LTG-26
    0.03900310 Lithuanian_VA:LTG-502
    0.03915533 Lithuanian_SZ:LTG-661

    Target: HUN_early_Avar:CSB9
    Distance: 2.0898% / 0.02089781
    79.8 Latvian
    9.4 Lithuanian_RA
    5.8 Lithuanian_PZ
    2.2 Russian_Pskov
    1.6 Lak
    0.6 Lithuanian_VZ
    0.6 Manyika

    CSB-9: Grave No. 9 (Early Avar period):
    The remains of an adult female were found at a depth of 118 cm. The E-W oriented grave pit was 59-47 cm wide and 211 cm long. Both hands of the deceased rested on the pelvis. An iron buckle was found here, while earrings with a spherical pendant were found around the temporal bone. A fragment of a dished grey ceramic vessel was also recovered from the grave. The burial can be dated to the Early Avar period based on the earrings and the orientation.
    What is early Avar period? 500-600?
    That would make her almost contemporary to Marvele and Bailuliai, but seems like bit more Modern Balts like than these 2.

  11. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    What is early Avar period? 500-600?
    Early Avar Period - c. ‘568’–630 AD

    Her mtDNA - H1c22



    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...e/H;name=H1c22
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-23-2022 at 11:52 AM.

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  13. #748
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  15. #749
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    I plotted AV2 in various scenarios too, and while it might have some admixture, it seems to be low level and representative of the kind of "pure" Slavic ancestry which actually entered Pannonia, to put it that way. Whether that's Proto-Slavic or they picked something up in between is a completely different question and might relate to the I2a-Din presence in those Slavic groups in my opinion.

    An early (Northern) Dacian-like admixture became even more likely with the new results from Pannonia, I'd say. But this I would primarily associate with E-V13, yet we don't know for sure and all areas. Considering that the Lusatians were quite similar, if taking the Tollense samples as a starting point, saying generally Eastern Urnfield might not be that far off.

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  17. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Looks indeed Baltic. Even Latvian.
    Could you add Marvele and Bailuliai to the plot?

    Just thinking Av2 was also dated around after 500 ad and also from Hungary. Interesting.

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