Results 1 to 10 of 950

Thread: Slavic Chronology

Threaded View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    7,208
    Sex
    Location
    Poznan, Poland
    Ethnicity
    Polish (Wielkopolans)
    Nationality
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L617 Kapuscinski
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029 Meller

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union Polish–LithuanianCommonwealth

    Slavic Chronology

    I have gathered the following chronology for Slavic prehistory between 3500 BC and 450 AD, based mainly on linguistics and Y-DNA research:

    Years 5000-3000 BC = somewhere in the steppes there live Proto-Indo-Europeans
    ca. 3000 BC (6500-4500 ybp) = Proto-Balto-Slavs split from the rest of IE folks / sources: Gray 2011 & Kushniarevich 2015*
    Years 3000-1400 BC = somewhere in Europe lives the Balto-Slavic tribe or population
    ca. 1400 BC (4000-3000 ybp) = (Pre-)Proto-Slavs split from the rest of PBSl / sources: Kushniarevich 2015 & Gray 2011
    Years 1400 - 700/200 BC = somewhere in Europe lives a Proto-Slavic population - rather still small in numbers
    ca. 700-200 BC (2700-2200 ybp) = start of a demographic boom of male ancestors of Kashubs & Sorbs / source: Rebala 2012**
    Years 700-200 BC up to 125 AD = somewhere in Europe lives a Proto-Slavic population - already more numerous
    Period 300-100 BC = time of a major synchronic demographic boom of R-M458, R-Z280 & I-CTS10936 male lineages (Riverman's chart @)
    ca. 100-125 AD (1900 ybp) = PSl split into Proto-West & Proto-SouthEast (phonetics-based) / source: Kushniarevich 2015 & Blazek 2020***
    Period 100-200 AD = time of a major synchronic demographic boom of R-M458, R-Z280 & I-CTS10936 male lineages (Riverman's chart @)
    Years 100-270 AD = somewhere live Proto-West Slavs and in slightly different area live Proto-SouthEast Slavs
    ca. 270 AD (ca. 1750 ybp) = Proto-SouthEast Slavs split into Proto-East and Proto-South Slavs / source: Starostin 1999****
    Years 270 to 300-400 AD = Slavs are already divided into at least 3 groups (and Boz is recorded as chief of the Antes ca. 340-380 AD)
    ca. 300-420 AD (2100-1400 ybp) = Proto-West Slavs start to split (Y-DNA Sorbs & Kashubs separate) / source: Rebala 2012 & Starostin 1999
    ca. 400-700 AD (1600-1300 ybp) = Proto-South and Proto-East Slavs begin to split & separate / source: Kushniarevich 2015
    Period 300-400 AD = = final major synchronic demographic boom of R-M458, R-Z280 & I-CTS10936 male lineages (Riverman's chart @)

    *The oldest possible time (6500 ybp) is quoted from Gray 2011 & the youngest possible time (4500 ybp) is quoted from Kushniarevich 2015.
    **Rebala estimated here the time of the beginning of demographic boom of male lineages of ancestors of Sorbs and Kashubs.
    ***I accpeted here the phonetics-based "West vs. SouthEast" model of 1st division within Common Slavic (section 2.1. of Blazek 2020 paper).
    ****I accpeted here the 1st split of Common Slavic dated to 125 AD and the 2nd split dated to 270 AD based on Starostin 1999, but I disagree with him that the 1st split was into North vs. South. Instead, I accept models from section 2.1 of Blazek 2020 which say that at first West split from East&South. This is also in agreement with Y-DNA: both South and East Slavs have high % of I2a, while West Slavs have much lower % of I2a.

    What do you think about this? Do you disagree with anything or have something to add? Let's discuss.

    List of studies used:

    Gray et al. 2011 - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299878405
    Rebala et al. 2012 - https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2012190 (he estimated time when Y-chr male ancestors of Sorbs & Kashubs split)
    Kushniarevich et al. 2015 - https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0135820
    Blazek 2020 - https://pressto.amu.edu.pl/index.php...cle/view/31068
    Starostin 1999 (his conclusions are quoted by Blazek in the link above)

    =====

    @ Riverman's chart (quoted below), I suppose it is based on ph2ter's calculations?:



    Edit:

    This is probably the most of interesting of the papers I listed above:

    Blazek_2020.pdf

    Especially the three concepts about the initial split of Slavic languages are interesting:

    1. Common Slavic split first into Proto-West Slavic and Proto-SouthEast Slavic
    2. Common Slavic split first into Proto-WestSouth Slavic and Proto-East Slavic
    3. Common Slavic split first into Proto-South Slavic and Proto-WestEast Slavic

    Choose your favourite! By contrast Kushniarevich claims it split into 3 groups instantly.

    And then there are some additional "mixed concepts" which say for example that South Slavic is not one group, but Macedonian-Bulgarian is descended from East Slavic, while Slovenian and Serbo-Croatian from West Slavic (also listed in that Blazek 2020 paper).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-10-2022 at 11:34 AM.

  2. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     Brent.B (05-10-2022),  J1 DYS388=13 (05-15-2022),  leonardo (05-09-2022),  parastais (05-09-2022),  Riverman (05-09-2022),  rothaer (05-10-2022),  Strider99 (05-10-2022),  Szigmund (06-28-2022),  Zelas (05-27-2022)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 09-20-2020, 08:12 AM
  2. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 09-06-2019, 10:00 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-05-2017, 01:42 PM
  4. Poll: Pan-Slavic or individual Slavic language sections?
    By Administrator in forum Forum Support
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-25-2015, 04:07 PM
  5. Chronology of European mtDNA
    By Fire Haired in forum Other
    Replies: 94
    Last Post: 10-16-2013, 03:03 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •