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Thread: Slavic Chronology

  1. #761
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    So, G25 was built also to capture so called “Baltoslavic” drift. As a result 2 persons (Slavic and Germanic) might have same EEF-WHG-Yamnaya ratios, but they would plot very differently due to Slavic person having that drift.
    Now we can find all Baltoslavic populations somewhere on axis from ~Balkans (HRV_IA or Hun_Late_Sarmatian, etc) to ~Baltics (LVA_BA). I wonder if it is at all theoretically possible to find out specifically “Slavic” drift?
    So that modern Lithuanians that got a certain Baltic/Balkan ratio would plot different to ancient Slavic samples with same Baltic/Balkan ratio. According to most linguists Slavic split from Baltic before 1000 BCE and even if both languages stayed close and conservative up to AD, they would still have over 1000 years to develop their own micro-drift that might be unnoticeable in G25 which covers for whole Europe, but might be noticeable for some specifically built intra Baltic vs Slavic calculator.

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  3. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    So, G25 was built also to capture so called “Baltoslavic” drift. As a result 2 persons (Slavic and Germanic) might have same EEF-WHG-Yamnaya ratios, but they would plot very differently due to Slavic person having that drift.
    Now we can find all Baltoslavic populations somewhere on axis from ~Balkans (HRV_IA or Hun_Late_Sarmatian, etc) to ~Baltics (LVA_BA). I wonder if it is at all theoretically possible to find out specifically “Slavic” drift?
    So that modern Lithuanians that got a certain Baltic/Balkan ratio would plot different to ancient Slavic samples with same Baltic/Balkan ratio. According to most linguists Slavic split from Baltic before 1000 BCE and even if both languages stayed close and conservative up to AD, they would still have over 1000 years to develop their own micro-drift that might be unnoticeable in G25 which covers for whole Europe, but might be noticeable for some specifically built intra Baltic vs Slavic calculator.
    maybe it could be detected using some more fine grained methods, like IBD sharing and chromosome painting.

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  5. #763
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    here's the average of the 4 most WHG-shifted early Slavic samples.

    Code:
    DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA004,0.134311,0.126941,0.089,0.07752,0.050779,0.029284,0.00094,0.00923,0.004909,-0.016401,0.001949,-0.008842,0.020664,0.019818,-0.006515,0.005701,0.00665,0.0019,0.00817,0.007128,-0.010731,-0.000989,0.003451,-0.014942,-0.003712
    HUN_early_Avar:CSB9,0.130897,0.126941,0.089,0.085272,0.032929,0.036814,0.0094,0.017768,-0.006136,-0.043554,0.00406,-0.016635,0.023191,0.034406,-0.014522,-0.010077,-0.011865,-0.0019,0.001885,0.000125,-0.009858,-0.00779,0.024896,-0.01446,0.005868
    CZE_Early_Slav_oWHG:POH13,0.127482,0.132019,0.083721,0.078489,0.050471,0.026495,0.00517,0.018922,0.004295,-0.028429,-0.004384,-0.006744,0.017988,0.043076,-0.008143,-0.011668,0.005346,0.000507,0.004022,0.012256,-0.012228,-0.008903,0.01368,-0.013496,-0.002395
    CZE_Early_Slav_oWHG:POH28,0.141141,0.136081,0.087492,0.081719,0.047086,0.027052,0.019976,0.023999,0.010635,-0.01385,-0.001299,-0.014537,0.027502,0.03647,-0.015065,-0.007425,-0.014473,-0.005954,-0.005531,0,-0.007237,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00964,-0.002275
    Code:
    early_Slav_highWHG,0.1334578,0.1304955,0.0873032,0.08075,0.0453162,0.0299112,0.0088715,0.0174798,0.0034258,-0.0255585,0.0000815,-0.0116895,0.0223362,0.0334425,-0.0110612,-0.0058672,-0.0035855,-0.0013618,0.0021365,0.0048772,-0.0100135,-0.0054715,0.0106608,-0.0131345,-0.0006285
    this could be how Slavs looked like before absorbing the remnants of Chernyakhiv, Goths etc.
    Last edited by bce; 06-26-2022 at 06:05 PM.

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  7. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    here's the average of the 4 most WHG-shifted early Slavic samples.

    Code:
    DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA004,0.134311,0.126941,0.089,0.07752,0.050779,0.029284,0.00094,0.00923,0.004909,-0.016401,0.001949,-0.008842,0.020664,0.019818,-0.006515,0.005701,0.00665,0.0019,0.00817,0.007128,-0.010731,-0.000989,0.003451,-0.014942,-0.003712
    HUN_early_Avar:CSB9,0.130897,0.126941,0.089,0.085272,0.032929,0.036814,0.0094,0.017768,-0.006136,-0.043554,0.00406,-0.016635,0.023191,0.034406,-0.014522,-0.010077,-0.011865,-0.0019,0.001885,0.000125,-0.009858,-0.00779,0.024896,-0.01446,0.005868
    CZE_Early_Slav_oWHG:POH13,0.127482,0.132019,0.083721,0.078489,0.050471,0.026495,0.00517,0.018922,0.004295,-0.028429,-0.004384,-0.006744,0.017988,0.043076,-0.008143,-0.011668,0.005346,0.000507,0.004022,0.012256,-0.012228,-0.008903,0.01368,-0.013496,-0.002395
    CZE_Early_Slav_oWHG:POH28,0.141141,0.136081,0.087492,0.081719,0.047086,0.027052,0.019976,0.023999,0.010635,-0.01385,-0.001299,-0.014537,0.027502,0.03647,-0.015065,-0.007425,-0.014473,-0.005954,-0.005531,0,-0.007237,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00964,-0.002275
    Code:
    early_Slav_highWHG,0.1334578,0.1304955,0.0873032,0.08075,0.0453162,0.0299112,0.0088715,0.0174798,0.0034258,-0.0255585,0.0000815,-0.0116895,0.0223362,0.0334425,-0.0110612,-0.0058672,-0.0035855,-0.0013618,0.0021365,0.0048772,-0.0100135,-0.0054715,0.0106608,-0.0131345,-0.0006285
    this could be how Slavs looked like before absorbing the remnants of Chernyakhiv, Goths etc.
    Sorry if this has been discussed a lot already, but are you implying that Slavs today (Including West and South Slavs) have Gothic-admix?

  8. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by bovefex View Post
    Sorry if this has been discussed a lot already, but are you implying that Slavs today (Including West and South Slavs) have Gothic-admix?
    I'm not sure this was discussed much.
    I explored mostly the ancient Slavic samples, which are mostly from ~1000 AD or so, and they are certainly modelled well with Chernyakhiv and Wielbark:



    and these samples are very similar to modern Slavs, so they should have it too.

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  10. #766
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    I'm not sure this was discussed much.
    I explored mostly the ancient Slavic samples, which are mostly from ~1000 AD or so, and they are certainly modelled well with Chernyakhiv and Wielbark:



    and these samples are very similar to modern Slavs, so they should have it too.
    Whilst I agree with spirit of the post.
    Bodzia guys might have had some Scandinavian admixture. I think they were Viking time burials, culturally Viking. Maybe someone can correct me if I’m wrong.

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  12. #767
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    I think they were Viking time burials, culturally Viking. Maybe someone can correct me if I’m wrong.
    Yes, from page 50 of the supplementary information of Population genomics of the Viking world:

    "Equally unique were the rich grave goods, which may be linked mainly with Scandinavia and Kievan
    Rus’, but also with southern and western Europe
    "

    "Analyses of strontium isotopes and aDNA have indicated that a part of the population buried at Bodzia was not local, but was probably of Scandinavian and/or Rus-Varangian origin. A special role is played here by the tomb of a young warrior (E864/I) buried together with three young women; one of them was placed below him, in what is a two-level burial pit. In his tomb, a ceremonial sword was folded, ornamented in the Mammen style. On the strap-end there is a bident – the tamga of Prince Sviatopolk the Accursed (1015-1019 CE), who was the son of Vladimir the Great and husband of a daughter of Polish king Boleslav I (the Brave)."

    E864/I is sample VK157.
    Last edited by Strider99; 06-26-2022 at 07:47 PM.

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  14. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Whilst I agree with spirit of the post.
    Bodzia guys might have had some Scandinavian admixture. I think they were Viking time burials, culturally Viking. Maybe someone can correct me if I’m wrong.
    they are from the Viking study, I'm not sure about the exact burial context.

    As far as G25 is concerned they might as well be a mix of Slavs and Goths.
    testing Viking ancestry is much harder because the Swedish and Danish Viking samples range from Finnish to French-like and beyond.

    And they look ancestral to modern northern Poles, they are similar to the modern Polish_Kashubian in G25.

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  16. #769
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    I do not know why this belief that early Slavs should have maximally much of the Balto-Slavic WHG? Today the Balts and the Eastern Slavs have the most of this WHG. Today's Balts moved away genetically from the Balts of the Bronze Age in the direction of the Western Slavs. In turn, the Eastern Slavs are genetically away from the Balts in the direction of the Western Slavs. So the early Slavs should look genetically rather like the West Slavs. The more that among the early Slavic samples individuals with West Slavic genetics predominate. We also officially know that the early Slavs from Poland will be genetically West Slavic.

  17. #770
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    Today the Balts and the Eastern Slavs have the most of this WHG.
    that's because they have Baltic and Finnic ancestry.
    medieval east Slavs were slightly balkan-shifted and similar to some more southern Ukrainian groups.

    Distance to: UKR_MA
    0.01964295 Ukrainian_unspecified
    0.02000241 Ukrainian_Lviv
    0.02193996 Ukrainian_Sumi
    0.02248026 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
    0.02255039 Ukrainian_Zhitomir
    0.02284820 Ukrainian_Cherkassy
    0.02285303 Ukrainian_Zaporizzhya
    0.02337888 Ukrainian_Donetsk
    0.02339000 Russian_Belgorod
    0.02353901 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
    0.02369135 Russian_Orel
    0.02372153 Moldovan_o
    0.02395455 Ukrainian_Pontic
    0.02466687 Ukrainian_Kropyvnytskyj
    0.02483149 Ukrainian_Dnipro
    0.02521287 Russian_Voronez
    0.02538089 Polish
    0.02556710 Ukrainian_Rivne
    0.02560574 Ukrainian_Harkiv
    0.02594126 Ukrainian_Poltava
    0.02774856 Russian_Kursk
    0.02785831 Ukrainian_Ivano-Frankivsk
    0.02826087 Ukrainian_Krym
    0.02828404 Ukrainian_Kyiv
    0.02838860 Russian_Smolensk

    Distance to: BEL_MA
    0.02750032 Ukrainian_Pontic
    0.02896861 Ukrainian_Lviv
    0.03000806 Polish
    0.03072878 Ukrainian_Sumi
    0.03218214 Ukrainian_unspecified
    0.03238000 Ukrainian_Zaporizzhya
    0.03298906 Ukrainian_Zhitomir
    0.03326294 Russian_Belgorod
    0.03376950 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
    0.03381929 Sorb_Niederlausitz
    0.03391713 Ukrainian_Ivano-Frankivsk
    0.03413498 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
    0.03459315 Russian_Voronez
    0.03491293 Slovakian
    0.03536740 Ukrainian_Rivne
    0.03554188 Czech
    0.03597304 Ukrainian_Donetsk
    0.03621762 Ukrainian_Harkiv
    0.03690850 Ukrainian_Dnipro
    0.03694423 Russian_Smolensk
    0.03715012 Ukrainian_Cherkassy
    0.03827025 Ukrainian_Kropyvnytskyj
    0.03859452 Russian_Orel
    0.03905598 Belarusian
    0.03923154 Slovenian

    Russian samples are a bit more northern, but they are from further north (Gnezdovo and Sunghir):

    Distance to: RUS_MA_Slavic
    0.01752481 Russian_Orel
    0.01771271 Ukrainian_Dnipro
    0.01857597 Russian_Voronez
    0.01874230 Ukrainian_unspecified
    0.01895313 Russian_Ryazan
    0.01895474 Ukrainian_Sumi
    0.01916336 Ukrainian_Donetsk
    0.01930899 Russian_Kursk
    0.02041607 Ukrainian_Zhitomir
    0.02070410 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
    0.02091661 Ukrainian_Rivne
    0.02188593 Russian_Belgorod
    0.02202706 Russian_Smolensk
    0.02246368 Ukrainian_Cherkassy
    0.02351208 Ukrainian_Zaporizzhya
    0.02376404 Ukrainian_Pontic
    0.02432048 Polish
    0.02472950 Russian_Kaluga
    0.02492407 Belarusian
    0.02515787 Ukrainian_Lviv
    0.02567344 Ukrainian_Poltava
    0.02568898 Russian_Tver
    0.02600864 Ukrainian_Kropyvnytskyj
    0.02606053 Ukrainian_Harkiv
    0.02621063 Moldovan_o

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