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Thread: Slavic Chronology

  1. #3131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orentil View Post
    As said, there are indications for large depopulations in early mediaval times, see the map below from the article I cited above for the Oder region. If there were really 'Restgermanen' time and further studies have to tell.
    Attachment 52498
    Could be but this is not Weklice- modern 'Restgerman' but Weklice- modern North Dutch.

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    I assume the basic connection between North Dutch/CNE and Weklice is lack of celtic admixture that might be present in the samples in between like Kowalenko or others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Doesn't make sense to me, a modern North Dutch resembles the iron age/ roman age Weklice.

    This is a breakdown:


    Preussen c.q NE Poland is not Weklice lots of shifts in between.

    So to me this remarks on Eurogenes make more sense to me:
    I'm talking about such small proportions of Gothic ancestry entering the Slavic gene pool early, that they being now widespread and usually categorised Slavic even, but at the same time so low that they don't possibly stick out - unlike the Medieval/modern German admixture - though even that can be so evened out regionally, that most calculators could miss it for some regions and families.
    The Gothic admixture surely was a small contribution (if any) and assimilated very early. So we need actual Pre-/Proto-Slavs as a reference to even see it with any certainty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orentil View Post
    I assume the basic connection between North Dutch/CNE and Weklice is lack of celtic admixture that might be present in the samples in between like Kowalenko or others.
    Or in casu Weklice IA and North Dutch the same source population.....

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  8. #3135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Don't you think that Weklice became Slavic?
    According to the research of Dąbrowski and Pudło, the population of Weklice did not enter the gene pool of medieval Poland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    According to the research of Dąbrowski and Pudło, the population of Weklice did not enter the gene pool of medieval Poland.
    Ok fine, but that was not my initial quest.

    My quest was, why comes Weklice IA so close to modern North Dutch.

    I guess it's clear the nowadays North Dutch are very close to the original Germanics of IA.

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  12. #3137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Let's only add that modern North-East Bavaria is actually part of historical Franconia.
    Hello! I am writing here because your message box is full. After months, Loki responded to my private message asking to unban you on TA and he finally did.
    Last edited by Ajeje Brazorf; 12-03-2022 at 03:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    https://m.volksstimme.de/lokal/burg/...stell-entdeckt

    Google translate:
    Old military fort discovered

    Archaeologists have excavated a fortification from the eighth century in the center of Biederitz.

    The archaeologists' enthusiasm for the appointment in the center of Biederitz is contagious. With a team of five employees, the State Office for Monument Preservation and Archeology had been digging here on the Kantorwiese, on an area of ​​1060 square meters, until the end of October. “A section of a Carolingian fort was uncovered on a spur that reached into the Elbe,” they said.

    Significant find

    "It is one of the most important finds this year in Jerichower Land," explains Dr. Donat Wehner, responsible area officer of the state office for the district. The fort dates from around 806 and was probably commissioned by Charlemagne. In copies of a Carolingian chronicle that is in French monasteries, there is talk of a military fort that is "ad aquilonem partem Albie contra Magadaburg", in other words in the northern part of the Elbe opposite Magdeburg. Here in Biederitz, however, it was not suspected, according to Wehner. It is known that the castle was searched for as early as the middle of the 18th century.

    One of two forts of Charlemagne

    Even before the preliminary investigations by the State Office began in the course of construction work for a multi-generation house, it was clear that there would be archaeological finds here in the center of Biederitz and close to the Protestant church. Nobody expected that one of only two forts of Charlemagne would be discovered in what is now Saxony-Anhalt. The second military fort of this type is said to be east of Halle an der Saale. It's not found yet.

    At first, according to Donat Wehner, the archaeologists suspected that it was a castle. It quickly became clear, however, that not only the tradition about the location of the fort agrees with the find. The type of fortification is also comparable to that of the Carolingian fortifications that are already known. There are two ramparts, each with a trench in front. The inner trench is 13 meters wide and 3.5 meters deep. The outer trench is five meters wide and 1.5 meters deep.

    Does local history have to be rewritten?

    In research there had already been a number of suggestions for identifying the Carolingian counter fort in Magdeburg. From the point of view of the state office, however, they are unlikely from a topographical and chronological point of view or because the distances to the location described in the sources are too great.

    The military facility in today's center of Biederitz was built immediately after the end of the Saxon Wars (772 to 805 AD) on the eastern border of the Franconian Empire. It was supposed to define the eastern border of the Saxon settlement area to the imperial border against the Slavs and to secure the newly created border. As early as December 805, Charlemagne had decreed in the so-called Diedenhofer Kapitular that merchants who traded with Slavs and Avars should be controlled in Magdeburg and other border towns. In particular, this should prevent the export of arms.

    Exciting dig site

    Wehner calls the deep pit at Breiten Strasse 34 and 35 a “highly exciting excavation site”. The team, led by archaeologist Claudia Schaller, unearthed charcoal, animal bones and ceramic fragments in the trenches. The complex itself consists of wood and earth walls, i.e. palisades, according to Schaller.

    In front of the fortifications, two pit houses were also discovered, in which the people living in front of the fort probably lived.

    Pottery and bones

    Claudia Schaller shows some of the finds: predominantly undecorated ceramic material, spindle whorls, a bone slab and fragments of baking plates from the 8th / 9th centuries. Century. The archaeologists' finds testify to settlement activity at that time in what is now the center of Biederitz. “Does our history have to be rewritten now?” Asks client Dirk Nowak. After all, according to previous knowledge, the "Bidrizi" settlement was first mentioned in 938 in the tithes index of Magdeburg's Moritzkloster. So did the evidence of settlement activity rewrite the history of the town as early as the 8th century? Not necessarily, says Donat Wehner. The discovery of the two pit houses in front of the fort does not necessarily mean that there was already an entire settlement at that time.

    The local anniversaries will therefore continue to be celebrated in Biederitz on the basis of the so-called first documentary mention in the year 938.

    Google translate:
    The Ottonian center of power and rule near Memleben has been the subject of extensive research by the LDA for several years. For the first time, the Altenburg is now also the focus of the investigations. In particular, geophysical prospecting and excavations yield important, but at the same time surprising results. The Altenburg therefore goes back to Ottonian times with its essential fastening elements. Inside, pit houses, hearths, storage pits, stone and clay cupola furnaces, post holes and characteristic finds - ceramics, animal bones, metal objects such as buckles, parts of a lance, knives and a spur - indicate a not very long, but quite intensive settlement, which in the first half of the 10th century and ended before the turn of the millennium. Some prehistoric and early historical finds since the Neolithic Age testify to previous activities at the location, which is also important in terms of transport geography. In particular, however, the excavations revealed that the fortification of the central castle complex was not a time-typical wood-earth wall with a dry stone wall, but that an imposing free-standing mortar wall had been built here a good 1100 years ago, which is excellently preserved in the forest floor The wall, which is more than 900 meters long, up to 2.3 meters wide and still up to 1.6 meters high - originally probably 3 to 5 meters high - was a gigantic construction work on which hundreds of people worked for many months have to. Not only is it one of the oldest profane mortar stone buildings in central Germany, but it also surrounded the strongest castle of this type in a wide area. It has not yet been clarified by whom and for what purpose this enormous effort was made. The same initially applies to the question of whether the Altenburg can be identified with the Palatinate of Memleben. The colossal dimensions of the fortifications and the mortar wall - which can only be compared to the most important castles and palaces in the 10th century - seem to indicate this, but palace buildings have not yet been proven. However, palaces often included nearby castles that protected them, and in this sense the Altenburg was certainly a central element of the Ottonian center of power Memleben. In the Ottonian period, this was obviously of much greater relevance than previously assumed.
    Prime Minister Dr. Reiner Haseloff was impressed during his visit to the Altenburg and emphasized: "The excavation results presented today already make it clear that the Altenburg is another site in Saxony-Anhalt that was of outstanding importance for the Ottonians. This once again underscores the key role played by our region in the history of Europe.«

    Pottery from the Ottonian period - some with combed decoration (wavy bands), mostly with Slavic references - from pit houses and other finds from the Altenburg.




    https://www.archaeologie-online.de/n...-anhalts-5371/

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    The Lombard population in Moravia. Interdiciplinary research into Migration Period necropolises.

    The notion that groups of Elbe-German tribes were concentrated in a region north of the Danube has been contested by the discovery of vast necropolises, the study of which has great potential to shed light on cultural-historical developments in the 6th century. The subject of this project is interdisciplinary research into this population. The drawing of archaeological and historical conclusions will be preceded by non-destructive prospection, excavation, data heuristics and analytical evaluation using geographic information systems; a wide spectrum of natural-science analyses – standard anthropological analysis including paleopathology and carbon and nitrogen isotope analysis – will be applied to ascertain the population’s diet; strontium isotopes will be analysed to exactly prove migration of groups of population. At the same time, international collaboration, mainly in the area of genetic research, will take place. Regular presentation at international conferences is planned. The outputs will include three studies and a final summarising monograph in English by the proposer.

    Project end date: 31/12/2025


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