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Thread: Slavic Chronology

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by teftelis View Post
    there was West-Baltic migration from Baltic coast to East Baltic lands in early centuries AD,
    What migration are you refering to? The Galindians in the 3rd century ending up near moscow?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    Pleterski (Slovenian) assumes that some Vistula Veneds („Lusatians“ or earlier depicted as North Illyrian people) by SE-wards expanding Goths were pushed into the Baltic (Balto-Slavic) language area and gave rise to Slavic as a kind of “Venetisised” Baltic.

    To me this theory seems a plausible one. It’s my current assumption.
    In such case explain the lack of N1c among Slavs. Unless West Balts had no N1c, and Veneds were pushed into the West Baltic area.

    Also: Proto-Slavic is not considered as a "creole" language (and this theory would imply "creolization"):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creole_language

    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    are these from that new Allentoft study? do we have the autosomal results for any of them?
    NEO538 had Siberian admixture, but for the other two samples we don't know their autosomal DNA yet.

    NEO538 is from the new Allentoft study, yes - https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....and-Willerslev

    The other two are from older Russian studies, but only their Y-DNA and mtDNA were published so far.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-10-2022 at 04:40 PM.

  3. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Straboo View Post
    What migration are you refering to? The Galindians in the 3rd century ending up near moscow?
    Not exactly. More information here https://www.academia.edu/4793201/Tuc...2_CENTURIES_AD and works of E.Jovaiša on West-Balts, Aesti origins, The Aestii. The Western Balts.

    "In the first centuries BC, the WBBC in the coastal area developed into the Culture of Laminar Burial Grounds with Stone Coronas of Western Lithuania (WLBGC)."

    "Recently, the Culture of the Laminar Burial Grounds of the Lower Nemunas (LNBGC) (Scalovians), the Culture of Laminar Burial Groundsof Central Lithuania (CLBGC) (Austechians) and other variants of local ethnogenosis also have been related to the WBBC. In the 5th–6th century AD, the WLBGC split into two variants: Curonians and Lamatians. Formation of the Barrow Culture of Smogitia, Northern Lithuania and Southern Latvia (NLBC) is related with the migration, which started in the 1st century AD from the WBBC region southward to the scarcely populated Samogitian, North and MiddleLithuanian and South Latvian regions, and mixing with the scarce inhabitants of these regions, presumably the descendants of the BPC. Archaeologist V. Šimėnas pointed out the mixed origin of NLBC and applied the term Middle Balts to it and the descendant other archaeological cultures."

    "Yet the migration processes that took place in the 1st millennium AD did not bypass East Lithuania. In the 2nd–3rd century AD, brushed pottery abruptly disappeared, the fellow men were buried in barrows and the structure of population system changed."

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    I remember there was a hypothesis that N-M2783 (typical for East Balts) originated in this culture:

    http://www.sarks.fi/fa/PDF/FA13_51.pdf

    But it was from times when this tree was current: https://www.yfull.com/arch-4.09/tree/N-M2783/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Autosomally Latvians and most of Lithuanians plot to the east of Russians in any PCA (for example in G25 PCAs).

    A pattern that contradicts geography. What could cause it?
    High WHG?
    Edit: easily to verify, just need to find where LVA_BA Kivutkalns plots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    High WHG?
    Edit: easily to verify, just need to find where LVA_BA Kivutkalns plots.
    And also: most probably ancestors of Russians came to Russia from the west (west of Latvia and west of Lithuania).

    From the southwest of Lithuania/Latvia most likely.

    It would be great to get autosomal DNA of individuals for whom we already have Y-DNA and mtDNA from this study:

    https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Arc...olbunova_E._ed - see Table 3. on page 294:

    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-10-2022 at 05:06 PM. Reason: added a screenshot of Table 3. from page 294

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    And also: most probably ancestors of Russians came to Russia from the west (west of Latvia and west of Lithuania).

    From the southwest of Lithuania/Latvia most likely.

    It would be great to get autosomal DNA of individuals for whom we already have Y-DNA and mtDNA from this study:

    https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Arc...olbunova_E._ed - see Table 3. on page 294:

    Davidski said those were unreliable results.
    Anyway I already few times corrected you about the second case. It is not BCE, it it AD. Pskov Long Barrows culture.

    First confirmed N in Baltics was from Estonia ~1000 BCE. EST_IA samples.

    Edit: none of those N was East Balt…
    One was Pskov Long Barrows, which is some Slavo, Balto, Finno hybrid.
    Other (if we accept that result) was millennia before L500 was born. L500 is FennoScandian today. His son L1025 has two boys - FennoScandian Y4706 (small clade) and “Baltic” M2783 (big clade).

    L500 is highly unlikely East Baltic. Hard to explain why only his grandson stayed with Balts otherwise. Much easier is to explain one FennoScandian clan going South and getting assimilated by Balts.
    Last edited by parastais; 05-10-2022 at 07:26 PM.

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  11. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Anyway I already few times corrected you about the second case. It is not BCE, it it AD. Pskov Long Barrows culture.
    OK you are right, I haven't noticed that it is AD not BC. But there is still Serteya II dated to 3rd millennium BC.

    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Davidski said those were unreliable results.
    Probably because Davidski wants all of N1c in Europe to be associated with recent Siberian introgression.

    While I think N1c-L708 could enter Europe (parts of Russia west of the Ural) already ca. 7500 years ago.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-10-2022 at 11:24 PM.

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    Of course as long as Russian (or other) scientists don't publish autosomal DNA of individual A6 from Serteya II, people will claim it is unreliable.

    I still hope that this result is correct, and that they will also publish his autosomal DNA, and that it will show no or negligible Siberian admixture. This will prove my hypothesis that already 4000-4500 years ago there were in Europe (west of the Ural) individuals with N1c and no (or very small % of) Siberian admixture.

    N-L708 has TMRCA around 7500 years ago, and it is the first (oldest) subclade which exists in Europe. I think it could enter Europe 7500 ybp.

    Edit:

    Update required, TMRCA for N-L708 was estimated as 7500 years ago the last time I checked. Now it is already 8100 years ago:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L708/

    So I update my hypothesis and I claim that N-L708 entered Europe about 8000 years ago and settled in Russia west of the Ural.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-10-2022 at 11:20 PM.

  13. #100
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    Wait - is this real?:

    Individual I16184 dated to 2000-800 BCE (France_BA) - haplogroup N-L708

    From: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04287-4

    So there was N1c in France (!) ca. 2000-800 BC if this is correct. Then why not in Serteya II at a slightly earlier time (3rd millennium BC)?

    Why do people still doubt that this 3rd millennium BC example of N1c from Serteya II is real?

    Davidski did not add I16184 from Bronze Age France to G25. Probably because everyone would see that he has no Siberian admixture...

    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    First confirmed N in Baltics was from Estonia ~1000 BCE. EST_IA samples.
    And first confirmed N in France is apparently older, because 2000-800 BCE (if sample I16184 is real).

    So why do you doubt that Western Russia had some N already 3000-2000 BCE (3rd millennium BC)?

    =====

    Edit:

    And the oldest N in Sweden is VK579 from 200-400 AD (Ajeje Brazorf gave him 300 AD in his "G25 with dates and coverage" datasheet):

    https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf

    Code:
    VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA:VK579___AD_300___Coverage_11.77%,0.110408,0.123895,0.085229,0.070414,0.035083,0.02259,0.01034,0.005769,-0.003886,-0.012939,-0.006983,0.007343,-0.005054,0.006881,0.010858,0.005967,-0.023078,0.004307,0.00264,-0.001751,0.011605,0.008656,-0.008874,0.014701,-0.002155
    ^^^ He is visibly eastern-shifted (for example in Global25 North Europe PCA) compared to samples from my "Proto-Germanic cluster":

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post844713

    https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#NorthEurope

    VK579 has more of EHG ancestry than my "Proto-Germanic cluster", which indicates his N paternal lineage came from Russia probably.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-10-2022 at 11:53 PM.

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