Page 11 of 95 FirstFirst ... 9101112132161 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 110 of 950

Thread: Slavic Chronology

  1. #101
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    7,208
    Sex
    Location
    Poznan, Poland
    Ethnicity
    Polish (Wielkopolans)
    Nationality
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L617 Kapuscinski
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029 Meller

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union Polish–LithuanianCommonwealth
    ^^^
    Here is Eurogenes K36 for individual I16184 (2000-800 BC, haplogroup N-L708) - no Siberian at all:

    https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

    Sample I16184.txt
    Amerindian 0.92
    Arabian 9.07
    Armenian 0
    Basque 5.25
    Central African 2.81
    Central Euro 7.64
    East African 0
    East Asian 0
    East Balkan 8.19
    East Central Asian 0
    East Central Euro 12.79
    East Med 0
    Eastern Euro 10.11
    Fennoscandian 0
    French 18.27
    Iberian 3.64
    Indo-Chinese 0
    Italian 0
    Malayan 0
    Near Eastern 0
    North African 0
    North Atlantic 0
    North Caucasian 0
    North Sea 8.73
    Northeast African 0
    Oceanian 1.87
    Omotic 0
    Pygmy 0
    Siberian 0
    South Asian 0.26
    South Central Asian 0
    South Chinese 0
    Volga-Ural 1.02
    West African 0
    West Caucasian 8.12
    West Med 1.32

    But the sample is low coverage / low quality so likely it will not make it to G25. Let's wait for Serteya II.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-10-2022 at 11:37 PM.

  2. #102
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    7,208
    Sex
    Location
    Poznan, Poland
    Ethnicity
    Polish (Wielkopolans)
    Nationality
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L617 Kapuscinski
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029 Meller

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union Polish–LithuanianCommonwealth
    Autosomal model for VK579 (200-400 AD) the oldest known N in Scandinavia using my "10 Thousand Years Ago" (10KYA) calculator:

    Target: VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA_VK579_300AD
    Distance: 5.8227% / 0.05822728
    40.6 Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus_ZO2002
    27.2 Anatolia_Greece_10KYA:TUR_Barcin_N
    13.2 East_Baltic_Coast_10KYA:Baltic_LVA_HG_I4632
    9.4 Southern_Europe_10KYA:WHG_I1875
    8.2 Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya:Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash
    1.4 Northeast_Europe_10KYA:RUS_Karelia_HG

    After removing I4632:

    Target: VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA_VK579_300AD
    Distance: 5.8362% / 0.05836210
    38.6 Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus_ZO2002
    27.2 Anatolia_Greece_10KYA:TUR_Barcin_N
    11.8 Southern_Europe_10KYA:WHG_I1875
    9.2 East_Baltic_Coast_10KYA:Baltic_LVA_HG_I4432
    9.2 Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya:Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash
    2.4 Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya:Yamnaya_UKR_I2105
    1.6 Northeast_Europe_10KYA:RUS_Karelia_HG

    After removing I4432:

    Target: VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA_VK579_300AD
    Distance: 5.8423% / 0.05842343
    38.6 Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus_ZO2002
    26.8 Anatolia_Greece_10KYA:TUR_Barcin_N
    18.8 Southern_Europe_10KYA:WHG_I1875
    8.6 Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya:Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash
    4.0 Northeast_Europe_10KYA:RUS_Karelia_HG
    3.2 Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya:Yamnaya_UKR_I2105

    ^^^ So he has an excess of EHG and / or of Baltic HG ancestry (also compared to Scandinavian samples without N haplogroup).

    I removed UKR_Meso and all of the simulated samples from my 10KYA calc while checking this model (I used only real samples).

    With Ukraine Mesolithic / UKR_Meso (which had a lot of EHG or EHG-like ancestry) and all simulated samples included he scores:

    Target: VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA_VK579_300AD
    Distance: 5.4558% / 0.05455839
    28.8 Anatolia_Greece_10KYA:TUR_Barcin_N
    23.6 Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus_ZO2002
    18.8 Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya:Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash
    12.6 Pontic_Caspian_Steppe(west)_10KYA:UKR_Meso_I1763_I2a1
    7.2 Western_Europe_10KYA_DEU_Meso_BDB
    5.2 South_Baltic_Coast_10KYA:Baltic_BA_HG_Simulated
    3.4 Central_Europe_10KYA:Mako_HG_Simulated
    0.4 Southern_Europe_10KYA:WHG_I1875

    ^^^
    After removing UKR_Meso:

    Target: VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA_VK579_300AD
    Distance: 5.5229% / 0.05522880
    26.4 Anatolia_Greece_10KYA:TUR_Barcin_N
    26.4 Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya:Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash
    24.8 Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus_ZO2002
    6.2 Western_Europe_10KYA_DEU_Meso_BDB
    6.2 South_Baltic_Coast_10KYA:Baltic_BA_HG_Simulated
    5.8 Southern_Europe_10KYA:WHG_I1875
    3.8 Central_Europe_10KYA:Mezocsat_HG_Simulated
    0.2 Northeast_Europe_10KYA:Veretye_Meso_PES001
    0.2 East_Asia(north)_10KYA:CHN_Amur_River_10500BP

    Or this (in another run):

    Target: VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA_VK579_300AD
    Distance: 5.5233% / 0.05523332
    26.6 Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya:Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash
    26.4 Anatolia_Greece_10KYA:TUR_Barcin_N
    24.6 Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus_ZO2002
    6.2 Western_Europe_10KYA_DEU_Meso_BDB
    6.2 South_Baltic_Coast_10KYA:Baltic_BA_HG_Simulated
    5.8 Southern_Europe_10KYA:WHG_I1875
    3.8 Central_Europe_10KYA:Mezocsat_HG_Simulated
    0.2 Northeast_Europe_10KYA:Veretye_Meso_PES001
    0.2 East_Asia(center)_10KYA:RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N


    So there even seems to be a small trace amount of East Asian.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-11-2022 at 12:24 AM.

  3. #103
    Banned
    Posts
    342
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think however that there was probably more to it too, though, because of the R-M458 vs. I2a-Din split and the geographical distribution. There should be a split based on a contact group, in all likelihood. It could mean that the Proto-East and -South Slavs did live closer to the Carpathians and were already more or less separated from the other core group (to the North West?) rich in R-M458. This really seem to be two separate expansion groups and events. Question is really whether the R-M458 group had at least some I2-Din or none at all and most of it came later through gene flow. I have no strong opinion on that and probably someone can already exclude an option.

    I think at least R-L1029 under M458 and I-Y3120 share a similar story and mirrored/overlapped migration pattern. Their bottlenecks/founder effects between 100-200BCE and subsequent demographic booms are very mimicked. Perhaps L260 and YP515 was just way more prevelant in the early phase and like Y3120, R-L1029 were small clans descended from one man. If L1029 and Y3120 were truly one man only 100-200BCE(not accounting for any possible discrepancy in aging methods), then already at the turn of the century they would be little more than a small family or brotherhood/clan by the time of the turn of the century. If Proto-Slavs were truly diverse and abundant in R-L1029, and Y3120, we should see some relic lines or parallel branches in these lines, which is evident in Z280/CTS1211.

    My guess is R-L1029/R-L260 were at the north east carpathian arch in southeast Poland, overlapping with I-Y3120 to its east and south east along Polesie, and northwest Ukraine.

    If that La Tene sample is legit Iron Age, R-L1029 is at least 2250-2500ybp. Considering where the sample falls downstream.
    Last edited by Uka; 05-11-2022 at 01:57 AM.

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Uka For This Useful Post:

     JoeyP37 (05-15-2022),  leonardo (05-11-2022),  Riverman (05-11-2022)

  5. #104
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,845
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    To the scenario of arrival from the forest zone of Russia? The Forest Zone of Russia is where we have N1c (now called N1a) in the Bronze Age:

    - individual A6 from Serteya II (Zhizhitskaya culture) dated to ca. 2500 BC - N1c haplogroup
    - individual NEO538 from Minino I, burial 16, late Bronze Age, 980-203 BC - N1c haplogroup
    - individual A5 from Devichi gory burial (East Balts) Iron Age, 800-400 BC - N1c haplogroup


    ^^^
    The last one (A5) is form the network of those 4 hillfort-building cultures associated with East Balts which I mentioned in one of previous posts:

    - Stroked-pottery culture
    - Dnieper-Dvina culture
    - Yukhnov culture
    - Upper Oka culture

    =====

    And where do you think did Baltic N1c come from? East Balts have different subclades than Baltic Finns, so it could not come from Estonia etc.

    Can you highlight the source/paper which published these two individuals?
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

  6. #105
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    7,208
    Sex
    Location
    Poznan, Poland
    Ethnicity
    Polish (Wielkopolans)
    Nationality
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L617 Kapuscinski
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029 Meller

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union Polish–LithuanianCommonwealth
    Quote Originally Posted by Uka View Post
    I think at least R-L1029 under M458 and I-Y3120 share a similar story and mirrored/overlapped migration pattern. Their bottlenecks/founder effects between 100-200BCE and subsequent demographic booms are very mimicked. Perhaps L260 and YP515 was just way more prevelant in the early phase and like Y3120, R-L1029 were small clans descended from one man. If L1029 and Y3120 were truly one man only 100-200BCE(not accounting for any possible discrepancy in aging methods), then already at the turn of the century they would be little more than a small family or brotherhood/clan by the time of the turn of the century. If Proto-Slavs were truly diverse and abundant in R-L1029, and Y3120, we should see some relic lines or parallel branches in these lines, which is evident in Z280/CTS1211.

    My guess is R-L1029/R-L260 were at the north east carpathian arch in southeast Poland, overlapping with I-Y3120 to its east and south east along Polesie, and northwest Ukraine.

    If that La Tene sample is legit Iron Age, R-L1029 is at least 2250-2500ybp. Considering where the sample falls downstream.
    This shows how much one lineage can multiply during one century:

    1. Example when one couple (husband + his wife) had 15 children, over 200 grandchildren, and over 2000 descendants in total by the time the wife died (aged 93):

    https://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/21/n...n/21yitta.html

    2. Example when one couple (husband + his wife) had 11 children, over 150 grandchildren, and over 1400 descendants in total by the time the wife died (aged 99):

    https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...778275,00.html

    Even when taking into account higher mortality in ancient times, we can still assume such women could have over 1000 and over 700 descendants after one century (here I assumed a 50% mortality rate, dividing 2000 and 1400 by half).

    And those two examples above are for monogamous couples.

    If one man had 2 wifes and both were so fertile = multiply x2.

    =====

    Also a collective example in addition to individual cases:

    Amish population in 1901 = 6,300 people

    And one century later:

    Amish population in 2020 = 355,660 people

    ^^^
    All of that due to natural growth, as they don't proselytize. Some other examples of extremely fast natural growth are the Medieval East European Jews, the French Canadians and Acadians of 1600-1800, and the Boers/Afrikaners of 1650-1850.

    About East European (but not Central-West European) Jews:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...761v1.full.pdf

    "(...) more extreme population growth in the Eastern AJ (0.25 per generation) than the Western AJ (0.069 per generation)"

    ^^^
    About that very high fertility of Eastern AJ we find also confirmation in many written sources, for example:

    https://www.wbc.poznan.pl/dlibra/pub...56?language=pl

    ^^^
    This source from year 1618 mentioned that Polish Jews typically married at age 12 and then made lots of children.

    =====

    Yet another example of very fast natural growth:

    - Polynesians (especially Maori in New Zealand)
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-11-2022 at 05:01 AM.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     leonardo (05-11-2022)

  8. #106
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    7,208
    Sex
    Location
    Poznan, Poland
    Ethnicity
    Polish (Wielkopolans)
    Nationality
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L617 Kapuscinski
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029 Meller

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union Polish–LithuanianCommonwealth
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Can you highlight the source/paper which published these two individuals?
    Table 3. on page 294 (but the younger one is dated to AD, not BC - my mistake):

    https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Arc...olbunova_E._ed



    And NEO538 is from the new paper by Willerslev:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ght=Willerslev

    ^^^ You started a thread about it.

    NEO538 had some Siberian admix.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-11-2022 at 04:26 AM.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     Ryukendo (05-11-2022)

  10. #107
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    7,208
    Sex
    Location
    Poznan, Poland
    Ethnicity
    Polish (Wielkopolans)
    Nationality
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L617 Kapuscinski
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029 Meller

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union Polish–LithuanianCommonwealth
    Guys these might be Early Slavic samples:

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...400?show=reads - SEI-5
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...399?show=reads - SEI-1

    I'm going to download these BAMs after I make some free space on HDD.

  11. #108
    Registered Users
    Posts
    685
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Balkan Slav
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-FT407280
    mtDNA (M)
    H4d

    @Tomenable I wouldn't consider myself anything near a specialist when it comes to R1a although I have a general idea about things I could give you my opinion on S20602/Y3120 though. I agree with you on the early West-East Slavic split but there is a problem with your theory about S20602, I have said this before but when we are discussing South Slavic I2a domination what we are really talking about is Dalmatia, Bosnia and Serbia if we go a bit to the east things aren't looking exactly the same in Bulgaria for instance R1a and I2a are roughly equal(excluding the NW) with slightly more I2a. The other thing is that while I think Z17855, Y4460 and Y18331 were originally East Slavic being by the way the most widespread branches in modern East Slavs and Bulgarians/Macedonians and Greeks that is not the case for the very branch with the biggest founder effect in Dalmatia, Bosnia and Serbia(also NW Bulgaria), S17250>PH908 which is downstream of S17250 where the vast majority of modern West Slavs fall. And finally the way things have been going phylogeneticly I definitely think Yfull is underestimating the age of Y3120 by something like 200 years.

  12. #109
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,528
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    N - Z16980

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Wait - is this real?:

    Individual I16184 dated to 2000-800 BCE (France_BA) - haplogroup N-L708

    From: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04287-4

    So there was N1c in France (!) ca. 2000-800 BC if this is correct. Then why not in Serteya II at a slightly earlier time (3rd millennium BC)?

    Why do people still doubt that this 3rd millennium BC example of N1c from Serteya II is real?

    Davidski did not add I16184 from Bronze Age France to G25. Probably because everyone would see that he has no Siberian admixture...



    And first confirmed N in France is apparently older, because 2000-800 BCE (if sample I16184 is real).

    So why do you doubt that Western Russia had some N already 3000-2000 BCE (3rd millennium BC)?

    =====

    Edit:

    And the oldest N in Sweden is VK579 from 200-400 AD (Ajeje Brazorf gave him 300 AD in his "G25 with dates and coverage" datasheet):

    https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf

    Code:
    VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA:VK579___AD_300___Coverage_11.77%,0.110408,0.123895,0.085229,0.070414,0.035083,0.02259,0.01034,0.005769,-0.003886,-0.012939,-0.006983,0.007343,-0.005054,0.006881,0.010858,0.005967,-0.023078,0.004307,0.00264,-0.001751,0.011605,0.008656,-0.008874,0.014701,-0.002155
    ^^^ He is visibly eastern-shifted (for example in Global25 North Europe PCA) compared to samples from my "Proto-Germanic cluster":

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post844713

    https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#NorthEurope

    VK579 has more of EHG ancestry than my "Proto-Germanic cluster", which indicates his N paternal lineage came from Russia probably.
    Serteya results are doubted because of method used to get them. You should ask Davidsky for technical details, but basically that method allowed for contamination of DNA. Might be wrong, but likely DNA of researcher could update DNA of sample. But might be totally wrong - I am not technical.

    As to N, you may have individual N cases in Europe but that is like finding R1 in Iran and then claiming PIEs were from there.
    Just like for IEs you need to pinpoint R1a or even Z93, M458, Z280 to make sense.
    For N and Balts you need to pinpoint N-M2783 (700 BCE), because his parent clades L1025 (800 BCE), grandparent L550 (1100 BCE) and great grand parent VL29 (2100 BCE) were all Finnic. VL29 Finnic, but L500 and below more concretely FennoScandian.

    Many L500 subclades were found in Saaremaa Viking age. Seems like L500 and his kids were coastal Baltics.
    First L1025 (also disputed by Davidsky, because an amateur put him as L1025) was found in NLBC (North Lithuanian Barrows Culture) 300 AD. That is a culture derived from Lithuanian coast that took over Southern Latvia and Lithuania early centuries AD. Btw that culture did not enter West Baltic lands. It started on Northern border of West Balts, replacing West Baltic barrows there, but did not go further South.

  13. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to parastais For This Useful Post:

     Coldmountains (05-11-2022),  Michał (05-11-2022),  Ryukendo (05-17-2022),  teftelis (05-11-2022)

  14. #110
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,203
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Y20359
    mtDNA (M)
    H1c9a1

    Quote Originally Posted by Uka View Post
    I think at least R-L1029 under M458 and I-Y3120 share a similar story and mirrored/overlapped migration pattern. Their bottlenecks/founder effects between 100-200BCE and subsequent demographic booms are very mimicked. Perhaps L260 and YP515 was just way more prevelant in the early phase and like Y3120, R-L1029 were small clans descended from one man. If L1029 and Y3120 were truly one man only 100-200BCE(not accounting for any possible discrepancy in aging methods), then already at the turn of the century they would be little more than a small family or brotherhood/clan by the time of the turn of the century. If Proto-Slavs were truly diverse and abundant in R-L1029, and Y3120, we should see some relic lines or parallel branches in these lines, which is evident in Z280/CTS1211.

    My guess is R-L1029/R-L260 were at the north east carpathian arch in southeast Poland, overlapping with I-Y3120 to its east and south east along Polesie, and northwest Ukraine.

    If that La Tene sample is legit Iron Age, R-L1029 is at least 2250-2500ybp. Considering where the sample falls downstream.
    If so, then clans like L1029 and his descendants were in a mix of the Zarubinsty and probably the Przeworsk Cultures. That then begs the question, prior, when clans like L1029 were small due to a bottleneck, were they in the Przeworsk Culture, possibly even having originated in the Pomeranian Culture? They then migrated southeastward and maybe southwestward during the early IA, late Hallstat. Would that possibly account for the spread we see of L1029 and its subclades today?

Page 11 of 95 FirstFirst ... 9101112132161 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 09-20-2020, 08:12 AM
  2. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 09-06-2019, 10:00 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-05-2017, 01:42 PM
  4. Poll: Pan-Slavic or individual Slavic language sections?
    By Administrator in forum Forum Support
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-25-2015, 04:07 PM
  5. Chronology of European mtDNA
    By Fire Haired in forum Other
    Replies: 94
    Last Post: 10-16-2013, 03:03 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •