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Thread: Slavic Chronology

  1. #171
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    R1b-L617 Kapuscinski
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    R1a-L1029 Meller

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union Polish–LithuanianCommonwealth
    Coming back to Balts and N1c - these distances are good:



    https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

    TARGET:

    Code:
    Lithuanian_PA,0.1337421,0.1241485,0.0796195,0.074613,0.0421616,0.0291092,0.0087244,0.0134128,-0.0037324,-0.0263102,-0.0035118,-0.0091044,0.0186756,0.0266472,-0.0118755,0.0034972,0.0042865,0.0010292,0.0039282,0.0012351,-0.0060519,-0.0032921,0.0093979,-0.006552,-0.0002845
    Lithuanian_PZ,0.1356773,0.1255195,0.0883971,0.0871131,0.044562,0.035447,0.0106459,0.0156685,-0.0030065,-0.0347524,-0.0067879,-0.0129784,0.0230573,0.0315155,-0.0071118,-0.0032219,-0.0034813,-0.0016344,0.000817,0.0034265,-0.0023459,-0.0059477,0.0084426,-0.0090132,0.0005148
    Lithuanian_RA,0.135108,0.1240977,0.083306,0.0805239,0.0431158,0.0294229,0.0123146,0.015207,-0.0044994,-0.0323469,-0.0030203,-0.012469,0.0240532,0.0300018,-0.0152957,0.0017237,0.0070014,-0.0013936,0.00494,0.0030138,-0.0053282,-0.0060342,0.010057,-0.0066392,-0.0003714
    Lithuanian_SZ,0.1347664,0.1258242,0.0861344,0.0877268,0.0448392,0.0315424,0.0128081,0.0185529,-0.0019633,-0.0353537,-0.0039137,-0.0127386,0.0235031,0.0296026,-0.0123914,0.0018563,0.005111,-0.0012796,0.0020866,0.0021511,-0.0029574,-0.0067636,0.0070251,-0.0104229,0.0029337
    Lithuanian_VA,0.1344249,0.1257226,0.0824762,0.0750975,0.0433311,0.027889,0.0099878,0.014884,-0.0020454,-0.0298685,-0.0029553,-0.0138328,0.0200394,0.0280062,-0.0110613,0.0029435,0.0061411,-0.0005702,0.0023129,0.0061155,-0.003731,-0.00481,0.0072346,-0.0078805,-0.0008622
    Lithuanian_VZ,0.1372991,0.1261795,0.0850879,0.082365,0.0444314,0.0326652,0.0104872,0.0176242,-0.0036048,-0.0315269,-0.0036131,-0.0097039,0.0199762,0.0301394,-0.0104505,-0.0045578,-0.0006029,0.0012828,0.0032525,0.0013445,-0.0043829,-0.0056728,0.00835,-0.005874,-0.001317
    SOURCE:

    Code:
    Erzya,0.127387,0.0819194,0.0728158,0.0672378,0.0236452,0.0202195,0.0105755,0.0129611,-0.0045335,-0.0284745,0.0007984,-0.0105654,0.0176907,0.0121336,-0.0121582,2.21e-05,0.0043244,-0.0002008,0.0014664,0.0012297,-0.0025892,-0.0021846,0.0035125,-0.0064667,0.0015468
    Moksha,0.1267989,0.0885541,0.0724449,0.0615638,0.0239121,0.0203869,0.0098939,0.0131301,-0.0035382,-0.0277911,0.0010556,-0.0067139,0.0173785,0.0143128,-0.0123369,-0.0022142,0.0031293,-0.0011908,-0.0004779,-0.0025388,-0.0022959,-0.0033139,0.0038454,-0.0006147,0.0015686
    Komi,0.1187174,0.0307705,0.0850408,0.0682822,-0.0046161,0.0141677,0.0094945,0.0130841,-0.0030884,-0.0298138,0.0099383,-0.0086022,0.0182258,-0.0062204,-0.0087676,-0.0047601,-0.0014733,-0.0014444,-0.0039595,-0.0039646,0.0014723,-0.0011993,-0.0001234,0.0012051,0.0004191
    Baltic_BA:Baltic_LTU_BA,0.129189,0.1284645,0.091075,0.093993,0.040469,0.036395,0.0072855,0.011076,-0.0031705,-0.0483835,-0.0021925,-0.017834,0.0152375,0.026905,-0.009636,-0.00358,-0.008801,0.0025975,-0.004902,0.0006875,-0.0034315,0.0012365,0.000493,-0.0144595,0.0091605
    Baltic_BA:Baltic_LVA_BA,0.1305171,0.1268283,0.1001044,0.1110769,0.048385,0.0399124,0.0145449,0.0188197,-0.000568,-0.0488596,-0.0003249,-0.0189164,0.0329201,0.0433512,-0.0168293,0.0013113,0.0021294,-0.0014498,-0.0003212,0.0077817,-0.0024957,-0.0051934,0.0092299,-0.0223726,0.0025412

  2. #172
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    ^^^ And also the Latvians:

    Target: Latvian
    Distance: 1.5909% / 0.01590914
    70.0 Baltic_BA
    30.0 Moksha

  3. #173
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    E-Z16988+BY99620+
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    R-CTS3402+YP237+

    Serbia
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Autosomally Hungarians are very similar to their Slavic neighbours: Croats, Slovenes, Slovaks, Carpatho-Rusyns and Czechs.*

    So there is no reason to suppose that they have dramatically different biological origins than their Slavic-speaking neighbours.

    =====

    *It depends on region, each region of Hungary is autosomally close to a different (usually neighbouring) Slavic-speaking group.

    Northeast Hungarians are close to Slovaks, East Hungarians are close to Carpatho-Rusyns, West Hungarians (Transdanubia) resemble Slovenes and Croats. Etc.
    I understand all that, no need to explain Hungarians to me.
    I just wanted to dispute Uka's argument that R-M458 can't represent a Slavic/Venedic component compared to R-CTS1211 for which it seems to make sense to connect it to Ancient Balts.

    In other words R-CTS1211 is primarily Slavic today and was Baltic 2500 years ago, the same way R-CTS1211 in Hungarians is Hungarian today as it was Slavic 1200 years ago.

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Bane For This Useful Post:

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  5. #174
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    Also not bad distances, and somewhat more likely (Finnic component stronger in Latvians and Zhemaitians, than Aukštaitians) when Ukrainians or other Slavic pop is added for reference ;-) Moksha is very Slavic. For example Ukrainians can be defined as 20% LVA_BA + 80% Moksha.
    Moksha Ukraine Balts.png

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to parastais For This Useful Post:

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  7. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Also not bad distances, and somewhat more likely (Finnic component stronger in Latvians and Zhemaitians, than Aukštaitians) when Ukrainians or other Slavic pop is added for reference ;-) Moksha is very Slavic. For example Ukrainians can be defined as 20% LVA_BA + 80% Moksha.
    Moksha Ukraine Balts.png
    Why are you using only Latvia BA and no Lithuania BA in that model?

    Here I used Av2 instead of Ukrainians (BTW which Ukrainian average did you use, because now there are regional averages and the old nationwide average has been deleted by Davidski?):



    TARGET:

    Code:
    Lithuanian_PA,0.1337421,0.1241485,0.0796195,0.074613,0.0421616,0.0291092,0.0087244,0.0134128,-0.0037324,-0.0263102,-0.0035118,-0.0091044,0.0186756,0.0266472,-0.0118755,0.0034972,0.0042865,0.0010292,0.0039282,0.0012351,-0.0060519,-0.0032921,0.0093979,-0.006552,-0.0002845
    Lithuanian_PZ,0.1356773,0.1255195,0.0883971,0.0871131,0.044562,0.035447,0.0106459,0.0156685,-0.0030065,-0.0347524,-0.0067879,-0.0129784,0.0230573,0.0315155,-0.0071118,-0.0032219,-0.0034813,-0.0016344,0.000817,0.0034265,-0.0023459,-0.0059477,0.0084426,-0.0090132,0.0005148
    Lithuanian_RA,0.135108,0.1240977,0.083306,0.0805239,0.0431158,0.0294229,0.0123146,0.015207,-0.0044994,-0.0323469,-0.0030203,-0.012469,0.0240532,0.0300018,-0.0152957,0.0017237,0.0070014,-0.0013936,0.00494,0.0030138,-0.0053282,-0.0060342,0.010057,-0.0066392,-0.0003714
    Lithuanian_SZ,0.1347664,0.1258242,0.0861344,0.0877268,0.0448392,0.0315424,0.0128081,0.0185529,-0.0019633,-0.0353537,-0.0039137,-0.0127386,0.0235031,0.0296026,-0.0123914,0.0018563,0.005111,-0.0012796,0.0020866,0.0021511,-0.0029574,-0.0067636,0.0070251,-0.0104229,0.0029337
    Lithuanian_VA,0.1344249,0.1257226,0.0824762,0.0750975,0.0433311,0.027889,0.0099878,0.014884,-0.0020454,-0.0298685,-0.0029553,-0.0138328,0.0200394,0.0280062,-0.0110613,0.0029435,0.0061411,-0.0005702,0.0023129,0.0061155,-0.003731,-0.00481,0.0072346,-0.0078805,-0.0008622
    Lithuanian_VZ,0.1372991,0.1261795,0.0850879,0.082365,0.0444314,0.0326652,0.0104872,0.0176242,-0.0036048,-0.0315269,-0.0036131,-0.0097039,0.0199762,0.0301394,-0.0104505,-0.0045578,-0.0006029,0.0012828,0.0032525,0.0013445,-0.0043829,-0.0056728,0.00835,-0.005874,-0.001317
    Latvian,0.1354494,0.122473,0.0887742,0.089471,0.043208,0.0340246,0.0125966,0.0140762,-0.002168,-0.0368842,-0.0035728,-0.0138178,0.0232208,0.031378,-0.010559,0.0040572,0.0027118,-0.0003802,0.0016088,0.0043022,-0.0027952,-0.0057128,0.0090708,-0.0093264,0.0026346
    SOURCE:

    Code:
    Komi,0.1187174,0.0307705,0.0850408,0.0682822,-0.0046161,0.0141677,0.0094945,0.0130841,-0.0030884,-0.0298138,0.0099383,-0.0086022,0.0182258,-0.0062204,-0.0087676,-0.0047601,-0.0014733,-0.0014444,-0.0039595,-0.0039646,0.0014723,-0.0011993,-0.0001234,0.0012051,0.0004191
    Baltic_BA:Baltic_LTU_BA,0.129189,0.1284645,0.091075,0.093993,0.040469,0.036395,0.0072855,0.011076,-0.0031705,-0.0483835,-0.0021925,-0.017834,0.0152375,0.026905,-0.009636,-0.00358,-0.008801,0.0025975,-0.004902,0.0006875,-0.0034315,0.0012365,0.000493,-0.0144595,0.0091605
    Baltic_BA:Baltic_LVA_BA,0.1305171,0.1268283,0.1001044,0.1110769,0.048385,0.0399124,0.0145449,0.0188197,-0.000568,-0.0488596,-0.0003249,-0.0189164,0.0329201,0.0433512,-0.0168293,0.0013113,0.0021294,-0.0014498,-0.0003212,0.0077817,-0.0024957,-0.0051934,0.0092299,-0.0223726,0.0025412
    Szolad_Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.081458,0.065569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0.004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
    Erzya,0.127387,0.0819194,0.0728158,0.0672378,0.0236452,0.0202195,0.0105755,0.0129611,-0.0045335,-0.0284745,0.0007984,-0.0105654,0.0176907,0.0121336,-0.0121582,2.21e-05,0.0043244,-0.0002008,0.0014664,0.0012297,-0.0025892,-0.0021846,0.0035125,-0.0064667,0.0015468
    Moksha,0.1267989,0.0885541,0.0724449,0.0615638,0.0239121,0.0203869,0.0098939,0.0131301,-0.0035382,-0.0277911,0.0010556,-0.0067139,0.0173785,0.0143128,-0.0123369,-0.0022142,0.0031293,-0.0011908,-0.0004779,-0.0025388,-0.0022959,-0.0033139,0.0038454,-0.0006147,0.0015686

  8. #176
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    Poland, Wielkopolska
    Ethnicity
    Polish (Wielkopolans)
    Nationality
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L617 Kapuscinski
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029 Meller

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union Polish–LithuanianCommonwealth
    LVA_BA is an extinct population which did not speak a Balto-Slavic language (but maybe some related language, now extinct).

    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Moksha is very Slavic.
    So everything west of the Ural which is not Nganassan (who do not even live west of the Ural), is now Slavic?

    Moksha is a West Eurasian population with only small amount of Siberian autosomes. But I wouldn't automatically call them Slavic because of that:

    Target: Moksha
    Distance: 5.1020% / 0.05102040
    95.4 West_Eurasian
    4.6 East_Eurasian

    Target: Erzya
    Distance: 4.7451% / 0.04745129
    94.6 West_Eurasian
    5.4 East_Eurasian

    Target: Komi
    Distance: 4.0510% / 0.04050996
    85.6 West_Eurasian
    14.4 East_Eurasian
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-16-2022 at 09:31 AM.

  9. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    (...)
    But why did you use only LVA_BA and not using LTU_BA in your model?

    While Estonians can indeed have some ancestry from LVA_BA, it is unlikely for Lithuanians.
    I used both LTU_BA and LVA_BA as you see (in fact also EST_BA can be added to the model).

    =====

    Edit:

    How about this:

    https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/



    TARGET:

    Code:
    Lithuanian_PA,0.1337421,0.1241485,0.0796195,0.074613,0.0421616,0.0291092,0.0087244,0.0134128,-0.0037324,-0.0263102,-0.0035118,-0.0091044,0.0186756,0.0266472,-0.0118755,0.0034972,0.0042865,0.0010292,0.0039282,0.0012351,-0.0060519,-0.0032921,0.0093979,-0.006552,-0.0002845
    Lithuanian_PZ,0.1356773,0.1255195,0.0883971,0.0871131,0.044562,0.035447,0.0106459,0.0156685,-0.0030065,-0.0347524,-0.0067879,-0.0129784,0.0230573,0.0315155,-0.0071118,-0.0032219,-0.0034813,-0.0016344,0.000817,0.0034265,-0.0023459,-0.0059477,0.0084426,-0.0090132,0.0005148
    Lithuanian_RA,0.135108,0.1240977,0.083306,0.0805239,0.0431158,0.0294229,0.0123146,0.015207,-0.0044994,-0.0323469,-0.0030203,-0.012469,0.0240532,0.0300018,-0.0152957,0.0017237,0.0070014,-0.0013936,0.00494,0.0030138,-0.0053282,-0.0060342,0.010057,-0.0066392,-0.0003714
    Lithuanian_SZ,0.1347664,0.1258242,0.0861344,0.0877268,0.0448392,0.0315424,0.0128081,0.0185529,-0.0019633,-0.0353537,-0.0039137,-0.0127386,0.0235031,0.0296026,-0.0123914,0.0018563,0.005111,-0.0012796,0.0020866,0.0021511,-0.0029574,-0.0067636,0.0070251,-0.0104229,0.0029337
    Lithuanian_VA,0.1344249,0.1257226,0.0824762,0.0750975,0.0433311,0.027889,0.0099878,0.014884,-0.0020454,-0.0298685,-0.0029553,-0.0138328,0.0200394,0.0280062,-0.0110613,0.0029435,0.0061411,-0.0005702,0.0023129,0.0061155,-0.003731,-0.00481,0.0072346,-0.0078805,-0.0008622
    Lithuanian_VZ,0.1372991,0.1261795,0.0850879,0.082365,0.0444314,0.0326652,0.0104872,0.0176242,-0.0036048,-0.0315269,-0.0036131,-0.0097039,0.0199762,0.0301394,-0.0104505,-0.0045578,-0.0006029,0.0012828,0.0032525,0.0013445,-0.0043829,-0.0056728,0.00835,-0.005874,-0.001317
    Latvian,0.1354494,0.122473,0.0887742,0.089471,0.043208,0.0340246,0.0125966,0.0140762,-0.002168,-0.0368842,-0.0035728,-0.0138178,0.0232208,0.031378,-0.010559,0.0040572,0.0027118,-0.0003802,0.0016088,0.0043022,-0.0027952,-0.0057128,0.0090708,-0.0093264,0.0026346
    Estonian,0.1329454,0.1141455,0.087756,0.0833017,0.0427771,0.0297575,0.0113745,0.0144457,0.0004091,-0.028447,6.5e-05,-0.0123489,0.0194597,0.0213591,-0.0066639,0.0017104,0.0002216,-0.0024832,0.0013451,0.0022137,0.001385,-0.0018672,0.0042644,0.0007471,0.0030535
    Baltic_EST_IA,0.12881,0.1064613,0.093903,0.0930778,0.0434952,0.0322583,0.0097137,0.0131533,0.0019773,-0.036356,0.0054128,-0.0121143,0.0222,0.0148862,-0.0057682,0.0081983,0.010474,-0.0006547,0.003289,0.011193,0.0060727,-0.00237,0.0028553,-0.0118087,-0.0021555
    Baltic_EST_MA,0.129379,0.118817,0.0886237,0.0915167,0.046778,0.0363487,0.013474,0.0148457,0.0040223,-0.0346857,-0.0089853,-0.0133377,0.0173437,0.02624,-0.003031,0.0135683,0.0149073,-0.0040963,0.0007963,-8.33e-05,0.0007073,0.001319,0.00493,0.0008433,-0.0006783
    SOURCE:

    Code:
    Komi,0.1187174,0.0307705,0.0850408,0.0682822,-0.0046161,0.0141677,0.0094945,0.0130841,-0.0030884,-0.0298138,0.0099383,-0.0086022,0.0182258,-0.0062204,-0.0087676,-0.0047601,-0.0014733,-0.0014444,-0.0039595,-0.0039646,0.0014723,-0.0011993,-0.0001234,0.0012051,0.0004191
    Baltic_LTU_BA,0.129189,0.1284645,0.091075,0.093993,0.040469,0.036395,0.0072855,0.011076,-0.0031705,-0.0483835,-0.0021925,-0.017834,0.0152375,0.026905,-0.009636,-0.00358,-0.008801,0.0025975,-0.004902,0.0006875,-0.0034315,0.0012365,0.000493,-0.0144595,0.0091605
    Baltic_LVA_BA,0.1305171,0.1268283,0.1001044,0.1110769,0.048385,0.0399124,0.0145449,0.0188197,-0.000568,-0.0488596,-0.0003249,-0.0189164,0.0329201,0.0433512,-0.0168293,0.0013113,0.0021294,-0.0014498,-0.0003212,0.0077817,-0.0024957,-0.0051934,0.0092299,-0.0223726,0.0025412
    Szolad_Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.081458,0.065569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0.004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
    Erzya,0.127387,0.0819194,0.0728158,0.0672378,0.0236452,0.0202195,0.0105755,0.0129611,-0.0045335,-0.0284745,0.0007984,-0.0105654,0.0176907,0.0121336,-0.0121582,2.21e-05,0.0043244,-0.0002008,0.0014664,0.0012297,-0.0025892,-0.0021846,0.0035125,-0.0064667,0.0015468
    Moksha,0.1267989,0.0885541,0.0724449,0.0615638,0.0239121,0.0203869,0.0098939,0.0131301,-0.0035382,-0.0277911,0.0010556,-0.0067139,0.0173785,0.0143128,-0.0123369,-0.0022142,0.0031293,-0.0011908,-0.0004779,-0.0025388,-0.0022959,-0.0033139,0.0038454,-0.0006147,0.0015686
    Baltic_EST_BA,0.1321485,0.1213556,0.0992205,0.111662,0.051671,0.040746,0.0158398,0.0204684,-0.0029042,-0.050607,0.0009094,-0.0182389,0.0359462,0.0400344,-0.0180239,0.0018297,0.0103654,-0.000684,-0.0013952,0.0046272,-0.0024957,-0.0062692,0.0106487,-0.017388,0.002359
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-16-2022 at 09:40 AM.

  10. #178
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    No, Mokshas and Mordvins and Volga Finnics in general have a lot of archaic Para Slavic (a sister dialect to Slavic, but not related to Baltic) loanwords. You can google it up, Napolskich, Hakkinen.
    And I am not that much into Moksha, but in balto-slavica forum some Russian users are, and Moksha's Slavicness is their thing. They got significantly more ~Slavic than Baltic admixture.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to parastais For This Useful Post:

     Ryukendo (05-17-2022)

  12. #179
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    Are modern Lithuanians mostly Slavs (just like Moksha) in your opinion? Considering how much of Av2 they score (or Ukrainian in your model)?

    We can remove Moksha and leave just Erzya and Komi - but then also remove Av2 because IMO it makes no sense to use it in models for Balts.

    And of course using Ukrainians makes even less sense than using Av2.

  13. #180
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    If you model Lithuanians and Latvians as just a mix of Baltic_BA + Komi, they still score significant % of Komi.
    But I preferred Mordvins because the Komi live right next to the Ural and still have significant Siberian ancestry.
    I think N1c came to Baltic States from Russian Forest Zone much further to the west, not directly from Komiland:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komi_Republic

    =====

    BTW parastais do you have the old Lithuanian average for G25 (before Davidski added regional samples from Urnikyte 2019)?
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-16-2022 at 09:50 AM.

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