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Thread: Slavic Chronology

  1. #181
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    Urnikyte 2019 study unfortunately included some Poles and Russians from Lithuania among their regional "Lithuanian" samples.

    This becomes obvious when you check the results of every individual one by one (some are very Slavic-shifted).

    About 15% of samples from Urnikyte 2019 study have Slavic results, and this is also the percentage of ethnic Slavs in Lithuania:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic...s_in_Lithuania - Ethnic minorities in Lithuania

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    No, Mokshas and Mordvins and Volga Finnics in general have a lot of archaic Para Slavic (a sister dialect to Slavic, but not related to Baltic) loanwords. You can google it up, Napolskich, Hakkinen.
    And I am not that much into Moksha, but in balto-slavica forum some Russian users are, and Moksha's Slavicness is their thing. They got significantly more ~Slavic than Baltic admixture.
    Are they also not scoring quite much Slavic/"Carpathian" and distinctly non-Baltic Y-DNA like E-V13? They certainly have some old Para-Slavic/Baltic ancestry predating Slavs but I think much of their Slavic ancestry is actually more Ukrainian than AV2/LTU_BA-like because medieval Central Russia had a lot of population movement from Central-West Ukraine and these later Slavic settlers (not the initial tribal Proto-Slavic colonists who likely were more "Baltic") were probably Sunghir_MA-like and richer in E-V13+Central European/Carpathian admix (Sunghir_MA is closest to modern-day East Ukrainians but still siginificantly more western shifted than AV2)

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  4. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Urnikyte 2019 study unfortunately included some Poles and Russians from Lithuania among their regional "Lithuanian" samples.

    This becomes obvious when you check the results of every individual one by one (some are very Slavic-shifted).

    About 15% of samples from Urnikyte 2019 study have Slavic results, and this is also the percentage of ethnic Slavs in Lithuania:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic...s_in_Lithuania - Ethnic minorities in Lithuania
    ^^^
    And if I remember correctly the old Lithuanian G25 average (without regions) was much more "pure Baltic" than many of these new regional averages.

    Has anyone saved the old average (or the old individuals)?

  5. #184
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    in qpadm:

    Lithuanian
    Lithuania_BA 0.880
    Mordovian 0.120

    this barely passes, p-value is 0.07, and the cutoff for passing is 0.05

    with Ukrainian:

    Lithuanian
    Lithuania_BA 0.590
    Ukrainian 0.410

    the p-value is much better (0.2)

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  7. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    If you model Lithuanians and Latvians as just a mix of Baltic_BA + Komi, they still score significant % of Komi.
    But I preferred Mordvins because the Komi live right next to the Ural and still have significant Siberian ancestry.
    I think N1c came to Baltic States from Russian Forest Zone much further to the west, not directly from Komiland:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komi_Republic
    It seems unlikely the introduction of Balts N1c is unrelated to ancient samples from Estonia since both are derived for L550. Moksha are not a very old people in terms of genetic structure.

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  9. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    in qpadm:

    Lithuanian
    Lithuania_BA 0.880
    Mordovian 0.120

    this barely passes, p-value is 0.07, and the cutoff for passing is 0.05

    with Ukrainian:

    Lithuanian
    Lithuania_BA 0.590
    Ukrainian 0.410

    the p-value is much better (0.2)
    But it makes no sense to claim that modern Lithuanians are Ukrainians/Slavs who came and replaced the previous Baltic_BA population.

    Can you try the same also with Latvians (who have probably less of recent Slavic admixture than Lithuanians)?

    =====

    In your opinion R1a + N1c haplogroups Balts from hillfort-building cultures could not be autosomally similar to Moksha and/or to Av2?

    These ones (I think it is possible that Dnieper-Dvina culture, Juchnov culture, Upper Oka culture etc. were Moksha-like autosomally):

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I won't tell about Proto-Balts because they did not exist in my opinion (there were no Proto-Balts: just Proto-East Balts and Proto-West Balts).

    Let me tell you about Proto-East Balts first (my opinion about them):

    East Balts were represented by four archeological cultures during the last several centuries Before Christ (2nd half of the 1st millennium BC):

    - Stroked-pottery culture
    - Dnieper-Dvina culture
    - Juchnov culture
    - Upper Oka culture

    All those four cultures were very similar and together are classified as one cultural sphere of Russia's Forest Zone hillfort-building cultures.

    Those 4 cultures were East Balts (ancestors of Lithuanians & Latvians) who did not live at the sea coast back then, but inland in the forest zone.
    The oldest East Baltic hydronymy can also be found in areas occupied by those four cultures, according to Russian scientists at least, such as:

    Трубачев О. Н., Топоров В. Н., "Лингвистический анализ гидронимов Верхнего Поднепровья".

    =====

    As for West Balts - their origin is different, and they arrived at the Baltic Sea sooner than East Balts did.

    But Baltic_LVA_BA samples from Kivutkalns were NOT speakers of Baltic languages. Probably they spoke some extinct Para-Balto-Slavic language.
    The arrival of East Balts to Latvia-Lithuania is connected with the arrival of an N1c-rich population there. They came from the Forest Zone of Russia.

  10. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    It seems unlikely the introduction of Balts N1c is unrelated to ancient samples from Estonia since both are derived for L550. Moksha are not a very old people in terms of genetic structure.
    But the oldest East Baltic hydronyms are in the forest zone of Russia - in the area of so called hillfort-building archaeological cultures - not in Estonia.

    I started a thread about this already back in 2015:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post103531

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    As for the original homeland of Proto-East-Balts (I will simply call them East Balts below):

    According to Russian studies of linguistics, toponymy (including hydronymy) and archaeology, such as these:

    - Трубачев О. Н., Топоров В. Н., Лингвистический анализ гидронимов Верхнего Поднепровья
    - Седов В.В., Происхождение и ранная истрия Славян
    - Седов В. В., Славяние верхнево Поднепровья и Подвинья
    - Бернштейн С. Б., Очерк сравнительной граматики славянских языков
    - Третьяков П. Н., Памятники зарубинецкой культуры

    The Iron Age homeland of East Balts were forest cultures of North-West Russia characterised by hillforts and long barrows.

    That network of hillfort-building cultures of the forest zone, included primarily the following four cultures:

    - Stroked-pottery culture
    - Dnieper-Dvina culture
    - Yukhnov culture
    - Upper Oka culture

    Areas occupied by those Iron Age cultures, contained archaeological sites (both Iron Age and older) described in these papers:

    Dolukhanov et al., "The East European Plain on the Eve of Agriculture":

    http://www.mas.ncl.ac.uk/~nas13/AS/2...hanov_etal.pdf

    Dolbunova et al., "Archaeology of lake settlement (North-West Russia)":

    https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Arc...olbunova_E._ed

    In the latter paper we have results of aDNA research, in Table 3. on p. 294 we have 6 samples:

    (...)
    NW Russia is not that far away from Estonia, but - unlike Estonia - it actually has Old East Baltic hydronymy.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-16-2022 at 10:20 AM.

  11. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    LVA_BA is an extinct population which did not speak a Balto-Slavic language (but maybe some related language, now extinct).
    LVA_BA and EST_BA are recent migrants from the Russian forest zone. I think they spoke not only Balto-Slavic but something closely related to East Baltic.

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  13. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But the oldest East Baltic hydronyms are in the Forest Zone of Russia - in the area of so called hillfort-building archaeological cultures - not in Estonia.
    We have two samples from Estonia born outside it(in this forest zone). 0LS10_1 and V10_2. But neither is L550 since one is R1a and the other is undetermined N1c. VII4_1 on the other hand is born in Estonia but is L550 but it is quite similar to the former. These probably are the best references to use for Finnic admixture in the Baltics which is ultimately very minor at best beyond Estonia despite strong founder effects.

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  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    LVA_BA and EST_BA are recent migrants from the Russian forest zone. I think they spoke not only Balto-Slavic but something closely related to East Baltic.
    Nope, they are too early for East Baltic. East Balts came later and introduced N1c haplogroup in my opinion.

    Those Proto-East Balts of hillfort-building cultures could actually be autosomally similar to modern Moksha, or perhaps even more Av2-like / Ukrainian-like than Moksha.

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