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Thread: Slavic Chronology

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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    (...)
    Gray et al. 2011 claim Proto-Slavic split ca. 3400 years ago:

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_299878405



    Chang et al. estimate it happened as late as 2600 years ago:

    https://www.linguisticsociety.org/si...AlPreprint.pdf

    ^^^ See Figure 2. Analysis A2 summary tree.

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    none of this "chronology" is based on specific scientific data, including linguistics.
    you do not have any data on the languages ​​spoken in the steppes in the mentioned periods, so the mentioned information is pure speculation, it is even exaggerated to call it theories.
    These "Y-DNA expansions" are not related to the expansion of language groups, but population statistics that will be similar for the continent as a whole and with other uniparental markers for Europe. They may be related to wars, epidemics, lifestyle, economic reasons related to nutrition, the development of medicine in modern times, etc.
    moreover, the number of populations 2000-3000 years ago was naturally on other scales for understandable reasons.
    The Proto-Slavs may have been E-V13 and my speculation will not be greater than yours with these 90% + 5% + 5% of some subjectively selected markers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I have gathered the following chronology for Slavic prehistory...

    ca. 100-125 AD (1900 ybp) = PSl split into Proto-West & Proto-SouthEast (phonetics-based) / source: Kushniarevich 2015 & Blazek 2020***

    I am most familiar with R-YP263 to use as some sort of marker. YFull estimates its TMRCA to 1800 YBP, but we know this may be off by 10%, so that would make it anywhere from 1800 - 1980 YBP, generally within the time frame posted above. I mention this because while YP263 is primarily West Slavic (FTDNA lists approximately 62% of all samples from Germany, Poland and Czechia), it is diverse enough to indicate it may have formed just prior to the split of the Slavic tribes (in addition about 9% is from Russia, Ukraine and Belarus while approximately 6% is from Bulgaria, Greece, Romania and Albania). I think this example can lend some credibility to your estimate.
    Last edited by leonardo; 05-09-2022 at 10:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    List of studies used:

    Gray et al. 2011 - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299878405
    Rebala et al. 2012 - https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2012190 (he estimated time when Y-chr male ancestors of Sorbs & Kashubs split)
    Kushniarevich et al. 2015 - https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0135820
    Blazek 2020 - https://pressto.amu.edu.pl/index.php...cle/view/31068
    Starostin 1999 (his conclusions are quoted by Blazek in the link above)

    =====
    Gray's methods were criticized a lot and I wouldn't trust them. I am somewhat skeptical of statistical methods, but there at least two other papers and they produce more recent dates:

    Ancestry-constrained phylogenetic analysis supports the Indo-European steppe hypothesis, Will Chang, Chundra Cathcart, David Hall, Andrew Garrett - this paper dates split of Balto-Slavic languages from other branches of IE somewhere between 3000-2500 BC

    https://www.degruyter.com/document/d...0/html?lang=en
    Rapid radiation of the inner Indo-European languages: an advanced approach to Indo-European lexicostatistics
    Alexei S. Kassian, Mikhail Zhivlov, George Starostin, Artem A. Trofimov, Petr A. Kocharov, Anna Kuritsyna and Mikhail N. Saenko

    They group Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic languages and date their split between 2500 and 2000 BC.

    Also, Kushniarevich et al. 2015 study was also criticized a lot, especially by Davidski. So I wouldn't trust conclusions of Kushniarevich et al. 2015 either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutut View Post
    none of this "chronology" is based on specific scientific data, including linguistics.
    you do not have any data on the languages ​​spoken in the steppes in the mentioned periods, so the mentioned information is pure speculation
    It is not speculation. Based on reconstructed PIE vocabulary we know that all Indo-Europeans at the time of their split had the knowledge of innovations and inventions which are not older than 5000 BC (based on archaeology). So the disintegration of PIE unity can't be older than 5000 BC (actually 4500-4000 BC is much more likely, but I gave you the oldest possible date after Kuschniarevich 2015). For example all of Indo-Europeans knew the word for wheel (except Proto-Anatolians - so they could split from the rest before the PIE acquired knowledge of wheeled wagons) and the oldest currently available evidence of wheeled wagons in archaeological records is from 3650-3350 BC. Also PIE had coppersmiths & copper metallurgy* (oldest archeological evidence: 5500 BC) and coulters (invented in the late 5th or early 4th millennium BC - before that only mattocks and hoe-forks were used by the Neolithic Farmers). It seems the Proto-Anatolians could split from the rest PIE continuum first - already around 4000 BC - while other groups started splitting later.

    *The story "About the Smith and the Devil" is present in nearly all of IE languages (and the few who don't have it could just forget it):



    This is one of 3 oldest examples of wheeled wagons in archaeological records (all 3 from very distant places, all from 3650-3110 BC):



    ^^^
    Man buried on this wagon had Y-DNA Q1a2 and was of mostly ANE ancestry, I uploaded him (SA6004) to GEDmatch - kit XU8528493

    =====

    David Anthony in his "Archaeology, Genetics and Language in the Steppes" claimed that PIE was originally the language of the EHGs:

    https://www.academia.edu/39985565/Ar...ent_on_Bomhard

    Recently we have learned about this new group - Middle Don Hunter-Gatherers - who had the knowledge of copper items in 5500 BC:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....and-Willerslev - MiddleDon_7500BP

    "Golubaya Krinitsa, Middle Don, Russia. The site was discovered in 2011 by Valery Berezutsky. The burial ground is located on the right bank of the Black Kalitva River (a tributary of the Don River), near its mouth. Excavations were carried out in 2015-2016 under the leadership of Andrey Skorobogatov. A total of 18 burials were studied (single, paired and collective).The burials were in rectangular pits, characterised by orientation to the south - southeast and southeast. The position of the buried is stretched out on the back, with arms located along the body. The bones are sprinkled with red ochre. The burials were accompanied by inventory: fossil sea shells, Unio shells and products from their wings, bone decorations (wild boar fangs, beaver teeth and groundhogs), bone tools, a copper product, flint tips, flint knives, and ceramics. The complex finds analogies in the Mariupol-type burial grounds widespread in the territory of modern Ukraine (Mariupol, Nikolsky, Lysogorsky, Yasinovatsky), and candate back to the 6th millennium BC."

    ^^^
    Of course some kind of a Pre-Proto-Indo-European language is very likely older than 5000 BC, but I was talking about "Proper PIE".
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-10-2022 at 07:59 AM.

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    BTW, Tutut, do you think that the Proto-Basque language could also be spoken in the steppes ???
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-10-2022 at 07:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Gray et al. 2011 claim Proto-Slavic split ca. 3400 years ago:

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_299878405



    Chang et al. estimate it happened as late as 2600 years ago:

    https://www.linguisticsociety.org/si...AlPreprint.pdf

    ^^^ See Figure 2. Analysis A2 summary tree.
    I think an early initial split around 1500 B.C makes sense, but considering the close geographic and likely genetic distance of early Balto-Slavic tribes to each other (talking about the documented ones which survived to the historical period) it is likely that there were very close contacts up to the early migration period at least between Slavs and East Balts. Because of these contacts Slavic and East Baltic share a bit more linguistic features with each other than East Baltic and West Baltic but most linguists also state that these not means that Slavic and East Baltic had a common ancestor after the Proto-Balto-Slavic stage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rozenfeld View Post
    Gray's methods were criticized a lot and I wouldn't trust them.
    This is probably the most of interesting of the papers I listed:

    Blazek_2020.pdf

    Especially the three concepts about the initial split of Slavic languages are interesting:

    1. Common Slavic split first into Proto-West Slavic and Proto-SouthEast Slavic
    2. Common Slavic split first into Proto-WestSouth Slavic and Proto-East Slavic
    3. Common Slavic split first into Proto-South Slavic and Proto-WestEast Slavic

    Choose your favourite! By contrast Kushniarevich claims it split into 3 groups instantly.

    And then there are some additional "mixed concepts" which say for example that South Slavic is not one group, but Macedonian-Bulgarian is descended from East Slavic, while Slovenian and Serbo-Croatian from West Slavic (also listed in that Blazek 2020 paper).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-10-2022 at 08:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    It is not speculation. Based on reconstructed PIE vocabulary we know that all Indo-Europeans at the time of their split had the knowledge of innovations and inventions which are not older than 5000 BC (based on archaeology). So the disintegration of PIE unity can't be older than 5000 BC (actually 4500-4000 BC is much more likely, but I gave you the oldest possible date after Kuschniarevich 2015). For example all of Indo-Europeans knew the word for wheel (except Proto-Anatolians - so they could split from the rest before the PIE acquired knowledge of wheeled wagons) and the oldest currently available evidence of wheeled wagons in archaeological records is from 3650-3350 BC. Also PIE had coppersmiths & copper metallurgy* (oldest archeological evidence: 5500 BC) and coulters (invented in the late 5th or early 4th millennium BC - before that only mattocks and hoe-forks were used by the Neolithic Farmers). It seems the Proto-Anatolians could split from the rest PIE continuum first - already around 4000 BC - while other groups started splitting later.

    *The story "About the Smith and the Devil" is present in nearly all of IE languages (and the few who don't have it could just forget it):



    This is one of 3 oldest examples of wheeled wagons in archaeological records (all 3 from very distant places, all from 3650-3110 BC):



    ^^^
    Man buried on this wagon had Y-DNA Q1a2 and was of mostly ANE ancestry, I uploaded him (SA6004) to GEDmatch - kit XU8528493

    =====

    David Anthony in his "Archaeology, Genetics and Language in the Steppes" claimed that PIE was originally the language of the EHGs:

    https://www.academia.edu/39985565/Ar...ent_on_Bomhard

    Recently we have learned about this new group - Middle Don Hunter-Gatherers - who had the knowledge of copper items in 5500 BC:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....and-Willerslev - MiddleDon_7500BP

    "Golubaya Krinitsa, Middle Don, Russia. The site was discovered in 2011 by Valery Berezutsky. The burial ground is located on the right bank of the Black Kalitva River (a tributary of the Don River), near its mouth. Excavations were carried out in 2015-2016 under the leadership of Andrey Skorobogatov. A total of 18 burials were studied (single, paired and collective).The burials were in rectangular pits, characterised by orientation to the south - southeast and southeast. The position of the buried is stretched out on the back, with arms located along the body. The bones are sprinkled with red ochre. The burials were accompanied by inventory: fossil sea shells, Unio shells and products from their wings, bone decorations (wild boar fangs, beaver teeth and groundhogs), bone tools, a copper product, flint tips, flint knives, and ceramics. The complex finds analogies in the Mariupol-type burial grounds widespread in the territory of modern Ukraine (Mariupol, Nikolsky, Lysogorsky, Yasinovatsky), and candate back to the 6th millennium BC."

    ^^^
    Of course some kind of a Pre-Proto-Indo-European language is very likely older than 5000 BC, but I was talking about "Proper PIE".
    That reconstruction is based on the wagon from the Ulan IV Catacomb culture mounds, not the one from the Sarakhalshun grave of the steppe Maykop dating to c. 3100 BC.

    By the way given that Afanasievo possessed wagons and their separation from Yamnaya/CWC has to be slightly before 3300 BC, that gives you an indication of when the wagon was adopted on the steppes. For this reason I dont think it is correct to refer to said 3100 BC individual as the "first wagon rider" (as has been done before by archaeologists).
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    That reconstruction is based on the wagon from the Ulan IV Catacomb culture mounds, not the one from the Sarakhalshun grave
    OK thanks for explaining, I thought that it was based on the actual Sarakhalshun wagon.

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    of the steppe Maykop dating to c. 3100 BC.
    It is dated to 3336-3105 BC actually (and Ajeje Brazorf has it as 3209 BC in his "G25 with age and coverage" datasheet):

    Code:
    RUS_Steppe_Maykop:SA6004___BC_3209___Coverage_66.18%,0.112685,0.016248,0.045632,0.147935,-0.072013,0.046296,-0.017861,-0.032306,-0.054199,-0.085833,0.010718,-0.007643,0.013677,-0.04514,0.03108,0.014717,-0.007041,-0.007348,-0.006285,0.001876,-0.017719,0.008532,0.016269,0.006748,-0.005389
    As for the three oldest known examples of wheeled wagons, as far as I know they are these:

    1. Bronocice pot from Poland 3635-3370 BC
    2. Clay tablet from Uruk from 3500-3350 BC
    3. Sarakhalshun wagon grave 3336-3105 BC

    So we have wheeled wagons in three very distant (from each other) places at the same time. Which makes me think that wheeled wagons had to be invented already around 4000 BC, because they needed some time to spread into such distant places by 3650-3100 BC.

    BTW, the guy buried in that wagon grave (3.) - SA6004 - was autosomally similar to Botai people if I remember correctly.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-10-2022 at 08:56 AM.

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