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Thread: Slavic Chronology

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    that gives you an indication of when the wagon was adopted on the steppes
    I personally think that the wagon was not "adopted" but actually invented in the steppes.

    Bronocice (Poland) and Uruk (Iraq) had wagons at the same time. But this is based on evidence from pots and clay tablets.
    While the Sarakhalshun wagon is an *actual wagon* (and not just a depiction of a wagon on a clay tablet, or on a clay pot).

    Of course the invention could happen anywhere within the Sarakhalshun-Uruk-Bronocice "triangle", we can just speculate.

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  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    OK thanks for explaining, I thought that it was based on the actual Sarakhalshun wagon.



    It is dated to 3336-3105 BC actually (and Ajeje Brazorf has it as 3209 BC in his "G25 with age and coverage" datasheet):

    Code:
    RUS_Steppe_Maykop:SA6004___BC_3209___Coverage_66.18%,0.112685,0.016248,0.045632,0.147935,-0.072013,0.046296,-0.017861,-0.032306,-0.054199,-0.085833,0.010718,-0.007643,0.013677,-0.04514,0.03108,0.014717,-0.007041,-0.007348,-0.006285,0.001876,-0.017719,0.008532,0.016269,0.006748,-0.005389
    As for the three oldest known examples of wheeled wagons, as far as I know they are these:

    1. Bronocice pot from Poland 3635-3370 BC
    2. Clay tablet from Uruk from 3500-3350 BC
    3. Sarakhalshun wagon grave 3336-3105 BC

    So we have wheeled wagons in three very distant (from each other) places at the same time. Which makes me think that wheeled wagons had to be invented already around 4000 BC, because they needed some time to spread into such distant places by 3650-3100 BC.

    BTW, the guy buried in that wagon grave (3.) - SA6004 - was autosomally similar to Botai people if I remember correctly.
    Yeah I was going off memory here, it's probably the case the sample was dated to 3300-3100 BC. You also have early wheels found in the Ljubljana marsh and recently an older one was uncovered in Northern Germany. To me a c. 3500 BC radiation point for ancient wagons makes sense, although I cant say for certain where they were first developed. A middle eastern origin had always been taken for granted but the findings in Europe might be a cause for reconsideration.

    Steppe Maykop was more like a two-way mix of something central asian/siberian (use Tarim_EMBA or Tyumen as a ref) and something very similar to Progress/Vonyuchka. The steppe Maykop samples were very similar to the Kumsay and Mereke samples.

    Maybe you'll find this blog entry of mine interesting:
    https://musaeumscythia.blogspot.com/...iants.html?m=1
    Latest blog entry:
    Hidden Content

    Also worth checking out:
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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This is probably the most of interesting of the papers I listed:

    Attachment 49523

    Especially the three concepts about the initial split of Slavic languages are interesting:

    1. Common Slavic split first into Proto-West Slavic and Proto-SouthEast Slavic
    2. Common Slavic split first into Proto-WestSouth Slavic and Proto-East Slavic
    3. Common Slavic split first into Proto-South Slavic and Proto-WestEast Slavic

    Choose your favourite! By contrast Kushniarevich claims it split into 3 groups instantly.
    The first split was Severians (Kiev culture) splitting from proper Slavs (Zarubintsy). These 2 groups can't be called neither west, east nor south. Because all later Slavic groups descend mostly from Zarubintsy, and Kiev made a minor contribution to all 3 Slavic subgroups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    And then there are some additional "mixed concepts" which say for example that South Slavic is not one group, but Macedonian-Bulgarian is descended from East Slavic, while Slovenian and Serbo-Croatian from West Slavic (also listed in that Blazek 2020 paper).
    This is a very anachronistic view, influenced by modern Slavic divisions.

    Both West Slavs and South Slavs both split directly from proto-Slavs with a few decades of difference, somewhere between 400 and 500 AD, so it's impossible that one descends from the other.
    East Slavs formed a couple centuries after this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    so it's impossible that one descends from the other
    But did you know that the migration of proto-Serbs and proto-Croats into the Balkans is recorded from the Northwestern direction - from around Bohemia or from Southern Poland across the Moravian Gate roughly?:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravian_Gate

    So yeah it is possible that Croats and Serbs came from West Slavic territories. And Slovenian language is a "missing link" between West Slavic and South Slavic languages. It has intermediate features.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-10-2022 at 09:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Gray et al. 2011 claim Proto-Slavic split ca. 3400 years ago:

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_299878405



    Chang et al. estimate it happened as late as 2600 years ago:

    https://www.linguisticsociety.org/si...AlPreprint.pdf

    ^^^ See Figure 2. Analysis A2 summary tree.
    I am actually in support for Balto-Slavic dissolving around 3,500 BCE.

    Around that date 3 BS lines went up North and ended up in Russians and Finns (guess responsible for earliest BS loanwords in Baltic Finnic languages, or even in Proto-West-Uralic).
    This march North could be an indication of some innovative advantage that made one of the first BS expansions. And expansion leads to language fragmentations and dialects.

    Edit: except this perhaps is wrong wording:
    claim Proto-Slavic split ca. 3400 years ago
    It was Balto-Slavic that splic ca 3400 years ago, Proto-Slavic split ca 1400 years ago. Also usually Proto-X is meant for TMRCA of all survived languages below. So, Proto-Slavic is dated AD. Normally this stage is called Pre Slavic or something.

    This is a good summary of current mainstream understanding of Slavic:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...o-Balto-Slavic

    Edit2:
    Historical development up to Proto-Slavic <- please read this chapter too. It helps when discussing linguistic matters to read on history of major Slavic sound changes. It is less interesting than homeland theories and whatnot, but gives better understanding on how comparative linguistics work. Also what is gives is some sort of immunity against "online linguists" who compare modern Slavic word with ancient Egyptian and make brilliant theories
    In general languages like Y-dna also have mutations (sound mutations) who spread among all words that languages "knows" at the period of change. Relative chronology of those changes is more or less established (some authors keep arguing on nuances, but more or less there is consensus), for example, it is known that East Germanic loanwords entered before Slavic First Palatization.
    Last edited by parastais; 05-10-2022 at 09:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    somewhere between 400 and 500 AD
    Kushniarevich dates the split (according to her - into 3 groups immediately) to 100 AD. This is based on glottochronology. Starostin's computer program dated the first split to 125 AD and the second split to 270 AD. Around 350 AD Slavs already had internal divisions, and one of their subgroups were the Antes ruled by Boz (died ca. 375-380 AD).

    So 400 AD is too late, even if going only by written sources (Jordanes).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-10-2022 at 09:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    It was Balto-Slavic that splic ca 3400 years ago
    It split from which language ca. 3400 years ago? PIE no longer existed 3400 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Proto-Slavic split ca 1400 years ago
    Too late according to both Starostin's linguistic program, glottochronology, Y-DNA ages (TMRCAs) and historians (Jordanes). Too late according to everything except a few hardcore archeologists who think archeology is self-sufficient and superior to all other sciences (not that there is any consensus among archeologists about it, though). Already in 350 AD we had sub-divisions of Slavs (such as the Antes) confirmed by written sources.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-10-2022 at 09:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    It split from which language ca. 3400 years ago? PIE no longer existed 3400 years ago.
    Okay, maybe I got you wrong.
    It (BaltoSlavic) split as in it was one common language and then it split into dialects Not as it split from PIE.

    Still to be perfectionist you don't call that one dialect Proto-Slavic, because it was few millenia before TMRCA language of Slavic. And there is some evidence for Para-Slavic languages (as in loanwords to Volga Finnics; Para-Slavic meaning - they shared some developments with future Slavic but had some innovations that exclude them from being Mother of current Slavic) which developed from same dialect. So, that dialect that split away from balto-Slavic should be named Pre-Proto-Slavic, or just Pre Slavic.

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    ^^^ Exactly!

    So 3400 ybp Balto-Slavic split into: 1. Proto-West Baltic, 2. Proto-Slavic, 3. Proto-East Baltic and 4., 5., etc. - possibly other, extinct branches.

    I support the theory that Proto-West Baltic and Proto-East Baltic descend directly from Balto-Slavic (I think there was no Proto-Baltic stage).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But did you know that the migration of proto-Serbs and proto-Croats into the Balkans is recorded from the Northwestern direction - from around Bohemia or from Southern Poland across the Moravian Gate roughly?:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravian_Gate

    So yeah it is possible that Croats and Serbs came from West Slavic territories.
    yes. this theory implies that Serbs and Croats were initially west Slavs, lived in central Europe for some centuries , and only later migrated South.

    there are 3 possibilities here:

    1-western Balkans were empty until 7th century, then they were mass settled by the West Slavic Serbs and Croats.

    2-western Balkans were settled by the initial (Ipotesti-Candesti) South Slavs, and they already brought the Serb and Croat ethnonyms with themselves. The 7th century story is a later invention.

    3-western Balkans were mass settled by the initial south Slavs, and a only small number of later (west Slavic) Serbs and Croats, who imposed themselves as a ruling elite.
    thus the Serbs and Croats (and their languages) would descend mostly from the initial Ipotesti-Candesti South Slavs.

    the theory no. 3 seems the most likely IMO. so this would just be a very minor movement, with no effect on the larger picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    And Slovenian language is a "missing link" between West Slavic and South Slavic languages. It has intermediate features.
    Slovenians probably have a minor West Slavic ancestry, because Prague-Korchak influence did reach Slovenia. But in my opinion most of Slavic settlement into Slovenia was pushed by the Avar movements from the east.

    Linguistically they were probably very isolated, because they fell under Bavarian rule in the 800s, and kept some old Slavic features both Czech/Slovak and Serbo-Croatian lost.

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