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Thread: Slavic Chronology

  1. #501
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    Andrzej Kokowski about Stolarek's work:

    "However, the most disturbing aspects of that publication are its conclusions.

    Let me quote two of them:
    1. “Finally, a part of the Chernyakhov culture population moved back and established a large settlement near Masłomęcz called the “Masłomęcz group” (stage F, 2nd and 3rd centuries A.D.).”
    2. “The latter indicates that the ‘Masłomęcz group’, often considered the Goths, from a genetic standpoint, was a mixture of different populations. Unfortunately, the presented data cannot unequivocally verify both hypotheses on the Goth origin and their relationships with the Oksywie culture. Thus, we still do not know whether the Goths replaced the Oksywie culture or induced its formation.”

    With regard to point 1, one must conclude that the Masłomęcz group was established by the Chernyakhov culture, which is at least three generations younger – this would mean that great-grandchildren gave birth to their great-grandparents. Clearly, the authors of the article have insufficient knowledge of the origin of the Chernyakhov culture; instead, they seem to unreflectively use historical content to match environmentalist hypotheses, ignoring archaeological, historical, and anthropological findings. Analysis of archaeological sources indicates that the Masłomęcz group originated in phase B2/C1, i.  e., in the last quarter of the 2nd century AD. The Chernyakhov culture developed no earlier than an early part of phase C2, that is around mid-3rd century AD. The predominance of Mediterranean features in the description of the skeletal material of the male population of the Masłomęcz group, that is, its similarity to the Chernyakhov culture, was already pointed out in 1996. This is logical, given that the Wielbark culture and the Masłomęcz group lay at the basis of the Chernyakhov culture. Thus, the discovery described by the authors of the article under scrutiny is not sensational. Had they read the literature on the Masłomęcz group, they would have learnt about a 1989 publication, where it is suggested that small cemeteries appearing in the Hrubieszów Basin in the late Roman period seem to have been set up by the Goths returning from the south who brought with them a slightly different culture. This means that results of the environmental analysis only partially complement and validate previous findings, faulty historical interpretation aside. My reaction to point 2. results from the justification to the first one. The Masłomęcz group has always been presented as a product of overlapping influences of two different cultural circles, with a stronger contribution of the Gothic element. Representatives of these cultures physically participated in the creation of the cultural phenomenon referred to as the Masłomęcz group. The authors’ reference to the role the Oksywie culture as the genetic proto-source of the Masłomęcz group is without value. Had they familiarized themselves with, for example, the relevant monograph by Volker Bierbrauer, the issue could have been approached in a more appropriate way."

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  3. #502
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    Kokowski's criticism concerns only the historical interpretation, not the results of genetic research.

    As I said... The Goths came to Masłomęcz from the west, so if the Slavic genome is not local to Masłomęcz, it shows us the local demographic background of the western area of the Wielbark culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Andrzej Kokowski about Stolarek's work:

    "However, the most disturbing aspects of that publication are its conclusions.

    Let me quote two of them:
    1. “Finally, a part of the Chernyakhov culture population moved back and established a large settlement near Masłomęcz called the “Masłomęcz group” (stage F, 2nd and 3rd centuries A.D.).”
    2. “The latter indicates that the ‘Masłomęcz group’, often considered the Goths, from a genetic standpoint, was a mixture of different populations. Unfortunately, the presented data cannot unequivocally verify both hypotheses on the Goth origin and their relationships with the Oksywie culture. Thus, we still do not know whether the Goths replaced the Oksywie culture or induced its formation.”

    With regard to point 1, one must conclude that the Masłomęcz group was established by the Chernyakhov culture, which is at least three generations younger – this would mean that great-grandchildren gave birth to their great-grandparents. Clearly, the authors of the article have insufficient knowledge of the origin of the Chernyakhov culture; instead, they seem to unreflectively use historical content to match environmentalist hypotheses, ignoring archaeological, historical, and anthropological findings. Analysis of archaeological sources indicates that the Masłomęcz group originated in phase B2/C1, i.  e., in the last quarter of the 2nd century AD. The Chernyakhov culture developed no earlier than an early part of phase C2, that is around mid-3rd century AD. The predominance of Mediterranean features in the description of the skeletal material of the male population of the Masłomęcz group, that is, its similarity to the Chernyakhov culture, was already pointed out in 1996. This is logical, given that the Wielbark culture and the Masłomęcz group lay at the basis of the Chernyakhov culture. Thus, the discovery described by the authors of the article under scrutiny is not sensational. Had they read the literature on the Masłomęcz group, they would have learnt about a 1989 publication, where it is suggested that small cemeteries appearing in the Hrubieszów Basin in the late Roman period seem to have been set up by the Goths returning from the south who brought with them a slightly different culture. This means that results of the environmental analysis only partially complement and validate previous findings, faulty historical interpretation aside. My reaction to point 2. results from the justification to the first one. The Masłomęcz group has always been presented as a product of overlapping influences of two different cultural circles, with a stronger contribution of the Gothic element. Representatives of these cultures physically participated in the creation of the cultural phenomenon referred to as the Masłomęcz group. The authors’ reference to the role the Oksywie culture as the genetic proto-source of the Masłomęcz group is without value. Had they familiarized themselves with, for example, the relevant monograph by Volker Bierbrauer, the issue could have been approached in a more appropriate way."
    Do you think this had something to do with amber trade? That is, these people settled there to facilitate it.

  5. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    Do you think this had something to do with amber trade? That is, these people settled there to facilitate it.
    Not sure. But let me remind what Patrick J. Geary said..."There's a lot of supposedly Longobard burials there and as we look at the material culture of people that the archaeologists say this is clearly a Germanic burial, we find that their genetic is completely Italian. So are these people local guards? Are they part of the army? Are they under certain circumstances Longobards and under other circumstances Romans? Do they move back and forth? Are there multiple identities?"

    Also, there's a genetic Italian with no Germanic admixture buried with a scriptural amulet (written in Gothic language) in Hacs.

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  7. #505
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    I'm waiting for this paper...

    Investigating population genomic continuity between the fifth and sixth century

    DEVEN N. VYAS, ALESSANDRA MODI, STEFANIA VAI, ISTVÁN KONCZ, WALTER POHL, LUISELLA P. BARICCO, ELENA BEDINI, CATERINA GIOSTRA, TIVADAR VIDA, BALÁZS G. MENDE, DAVID CARAMELLI, JOHANNES KRAUSE, PATRICK J. GEARY and KRISHNA R. VEERAMAH.

    Department of Ecology and Evolution, Stony Brook University, Dipartimento di Biologia, Universitŕ degli Studi di Firenze, Institute of Archaeological Sciences, ELTE - Eötvös Loránd University, Institut für Mittelalterforschung, Österreichische Akadamie der Wissenschaften, Dipartimento di Storia, Archeologia e Storia dell’Arte, Universitŕ cattolica del Sacro Cuore, Institute of Archaeology, Research Centre for the Humanities, Department of Archaeogenetics, Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History, Institute for Archaeological Sciences Archaeo- and Palaeogenetics, University of Tübingen, School of Historical Studies, Institute for Advanced Study

    The fourth through sixth centuries CE in Europe are commonly known as the Migration Period. Historical texts document that a group known as the Lombards, had settled in Pannonia (present-day western Hungary and surrounding regions) in the early sixth century, abandoned Pannonia in 568 CE and invaded Italy, ruling much of Italy for the next two centuries. We analyzed paleogenomic data from cemeteries associated with their migration and the communities that preceded them to test if and to what extent the population of Pannonia in the sixth century showed a change (possibly due to the arrival of the Lombards) and whether the migration/invasion into Italy may have occurred.

    We generated genomic data from 40 individuals from fifth century (pre-Lombard era) cemeteries from Hungary (Balatonszemes and Hács) and Italy (Bardonecchia and Lavazza). We analyzed these data alongside previously generated data from nearby sixth/seventh century (Lombard-era) cemeteries from Szólád (Hungary) and Collegno (Italy). We found that individuals from Bardonecchia and Lavazza predominantly had ancestry associated with contemporary southern Europeans, consistent with their geography. However, many of the individuals from Collegno possessed almost exclusively ancestry associated with contemporary northern Europeans, supporting the proposed Lombard migration into Italy during the sixth century. In contrast, we found that individuals from Balatonszemes and Hács possessed both northern and southern ancestry, as previously observed for Szólád. We analyzed the sharing of rare variants using medium (5-14×) coverage whole genomes to test whether this was representative of population continuity or migration between the fifth and sixth centuries.




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  9. #506
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    The same situation will be in the Wielbark culture; there will be an immigrant population, genetically Germanic, as well as local people, genetically Balto-Slavic. We know this from already published anthropological research and partially public information from genetic research. Full results genetic tests are still pending publication (for over a year).

  10. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambron View Post
    local people, genetically Balto-Slavic. We know this from (...) partially public information from genetic research.
    Could you please provide more details? Any R1a-L1029?
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-04-2022 at 11:01 PM.

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  12. #508
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    Andrzej Kokowski probably didn't see aDNA results of Weklice real Goths (who are purely Swedish-like with no outliers) when he wrote this...

    "The migrations of Gothic tribes from the mythical land on “the island of Scandza”, located somewhere in the north of Europe, to “Campia Gothorum” in what is now Spain, were most fully described by Jordanes (c. 480 – mid-6th century AD). His short treatise entitled Getica is, as he himself put it, a “supplementary” summary of the monumental Origo Gothica – de origine actibusque Getarum by the Gothic intellectual Cassiodorus (Flavius Magnus Aurelius Cassiodorus Senator) (c. 485 – c. 583 AD). Jordanes’ work covers the history of Gothic tribes until the moment they arrived on north of the Black Sea Basin and the Balkans. The subsequent political history of various Goths is known from other numerous sources and authors, the most important being the Historiae de regibus Gothorum, Vandalorum et Suevorum by St. Isidore of Seville (560–636 AD). Gothic migrations have been repeatedly discussed by historians, archaeologists, anthropologists, and linguists, with the literature on the subject comprising over 1,400 articles and monographs. For a long time, these publications portrayed Goths as a “nation” in the contemporary understanding of the term. The first archaeologist to consider a different interpretation of the terms “Goths” and “Gothic culture” was Ryszard Wołągiewicz, who proposed that these terms instead refer to a community consisting of various tribes, often of different ethnicities. His arguments were strongly supported by the results of archaeological excavations conducted in the Hrubieszów Basin (eastern Poland), where bi-ritual cemeteries were discovered. With the use of analytical research methods, it was possible to confirm the presence of other tribes, including “exotic” Sarmatians, next to Germanic Goths. Although this finding came from anthropological research, from the archaeological point of view the method was misapplied, as it did not include descriptions of specific individuals. The popular claim that Goths are representatives of “proper” Germans proved to be false when the appearance of a female Goth from the cemetery at site 1C in Gródek on the Bug river (Hrubieszów district) was reconstructed. Her “racial” features pointed to the Lapponoid circle, rather than the classic Germanic circle. This finding coincides with results in Kozak-Zychman, which also indicated a statistical dominance of the Lapponoid element in females in the Masłomęcz group. This is additional argument for the hypothesis that Goths were, from the ancient point of view, a union of various tribes, often including non-Germanic ones. They easily established links with other cultures, usually in order to engage in a variety of economic and military endeavours. Thus, the ethnic aspect of the term “Goths” can be assumed to be significant only in the political sense; the term most probably only referred to the elites that managed this tribal union. Indeed, new excavations and scientific methods provide further data for a reconstruction of the migrations of Goths so defined. It is possible to be progressively more precise in identifying their economic, cultural, and political significance in European history. One of the most important findings shows that the view the Gothic migration as an “invasion” that involved hundreds of thousands of people (as suggested by Jordanes) is a mental shortcut, at least when it comes to the first three centuries AD. Detailed analyses of the history of Gothic settlements reveal that they were in fact small groups of humans regularly penetrating the south. For various reasons, including environmental and political, they made permanent settlements in convenient locations. Both archaeology and history have high expectations as to the results of the latest anthropological research, such as the study of ancient DNA (aDNA), which might become crucial for our understanding of migrations. Archaeological methods are insufficient to determine the degree of kinship of individuals buried at one cemetery; moreover, a comparison of the degree of biological relationship of populations from cemeteries from distant provinces is practically impossible. Therefore, aDNA is viewed as a chance to identify foreign elements in the Gothic community, as well as the effect they had on the biological structure of the group in question. These issues are being investigated in the project entitled “The genetic history of Poland”, supervised by Piotr Węgleński at the University of Warsaw. The fact that skeletal material from cemeteries in the Hrubieszów Basin is perfectly preserved is particularly attractive for this project and the presence of archaeologists on the project team guarantees that the results are properly interpreted from the historical perspective."

    -----------

    Investigating Goth migration using genetic and isotope data

    Goth migrations and their consequences were undoubtedly one of the most important events shaping Europe during the Roman period. It is not surprising then that they arouse the unwavering interest of researchers and history enthusiasts. However, despite this interest, combining these historic wanderings with any empirical data proves to be a difficult challenge. In today's Poland, the migration of Goths is most often associated with the Wielbark culture known from archaeology. The new arrivals in Pomerania are connected, in particular, with the relatively sudden appearance of elaborate stone structures (such as stele rings or cobblestones) in the cemeteries associated with this culture.

    However, some researchers believe that the native genesis of the Wielbark culture should not raise any doubts, as we have numerous indications of its gradual development in the first century AD from the Oksywie culture that preceded it. However, the same researchers admit that the sudden appearance of the above-mentioned stone structures, at once in a variety of forms, can only be explained by some kind of migration from Scandinavia, where similar structures occurred in earlier periods.

    In our project, we intend to use the latest techniques developed by geochemistry and genetics to study the phenomenon of the appearance and spread of Goths identified with the Wielbark culture. Almost all the burials selected for our research come from the cemeteries of the Wielbark Culture with stone structures. The samples we collect will be expended using the radiocarbon method and subjected to genetic analyzes. In addition, all samples will be tested for the content of carbon and nitrogen isotopes in collagen and carbon, strontium and oxygen in tooth enamel. Goth migrations are an ideal phenomenon to use these methods, as the geological background in Scandinavia differs significantly from that in northern Poland and the isotopic composition reflecting this background should differ significantly between potential newcomers and local communities.

    https://projekty.ncn.gov.pl/index.php?projekt_id=502034

    I suspect that we'll see a lot of Scandinavian-like newcomers/Goths in Pomerania...

    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-05-2022 at 05:49 AM.

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    But after the first phase of Gothic expansion in Pomerania, when the Goths eventually reached Przeworsk culture, the situation could've changed...

    "Finally, we found that the genetic structures of female and male subpopulations of Kow-OVIA were significantly different (...) We found that the genetic differences between women and men were maintained for the entire observation period, i.e., for 200 years (approximately 8 generations). Such a composition of the genetic structure of Kow-OVIA could exist only if at least one subgroup (Kow-OVIA-M) was periodically exchanged. It would further mean that Kowalewko played some specific roles in that region. According to the recent archaeological studies, the colonization pattern in IA Greater Poland could be linked with the existence of a centralized organization system. Kowalewko could have been one of the important elements of this system. For example, it could have functioned as a garrison for the population closely associated with the JIA, such that warriors stayed in the garrison for only a few years and were then replaced by others."

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  16. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Y-DNA heatmap for POH44 (9-10th c. Slav from Pohansko)


    Y-DNA heatmap for POH41 (9-10th c. Slav from Pohansko)


    Both these Y-DNA lines have a TMRCA age of 1800 ybp.
    Last edited by Waldemar; 06-05-2022 at 07:39 AM.

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