Slavic Chronology

[Brent.B]

The best archaeology on Chernyakhov is by Mahomedov.
Huge study. Case closed.
The "ukrainian" populations your quotes refer to are those of the steppes. They are not the populations from which modern Ukrainians stem. You cant DNA cremation practisers. And why shouldnt Chernyakhovites resemble Europeans? That doesnt make them Slavs. Just because some Polish scientists are desperately trying to find in loco continuity for their people while historical documentation denies it is no reason to go along with them. Genetically possible, but genes are not culture or language. People assimilated into Slavdom are not originators but recipients.

So I’m a bit unfamiliar with the archeological studies here… what makes mahomedov the best study in this regard?

If I’m following Ambron’s argument correctly (?), there appears to be some researchers with data (?) that indicates population preceding Chernyakhov culture in Ukraine exhibit elevated levels of Steppe ancestry. This steppe ancestry appears to be missing from Slavs, so contribution from pre-chernyakhov culture populations of Ukraine to the Slavic expansions must be minimal(?).

On the other hand, as you point out, Slavs practiced cremation. So the samples with higher levels of steppe ancestry might be indicative of “non-locals”, while the “locals” are hard to see because of said cremations?

Does this sun up argument well? Trying to follow on my end!

[vasil]

@George What culture are you proposing for the Proto-Slavs? Please dont say Kiev.

[George]

@George What culture are you proposing for the Proto-Slavs? Please dont say Kiev.

What is your view of the transition timeline from Proto-Slav to Slav? Mine is involved with the emergence of the word "Bog" instead of "Dievas"" "Dievs" or something close to this for the Deity.

[vasil]

What is your view of the transition timeline from Proto-Slav to Slav? Mine is involved with the emergence of the word "Bog" instead of "Dievas"" "Dievs" or something close to this for the Deity.

So you are proposing an eastern origin because of couple of Iranian related words? We have talked about this before and West Slavs are Slavs as well and whatever theory we come up with needs to take them into acount as well West Slavic Y-DNA being what it is any origin too the east would require women to Slavize West Slavic lands.

[ambron]

George, if we question the usefulness of genetics as a tool for verifying archaeological concepts, why are we talking in the genetic forum? Let's move the discussion to the archaeological forum.

[leonardo]

What is considered the time frame for the transition from Proto-Slavic to Slavic? The 4th - 6th or 7th century? One of my biggest challenges is understanding how the Slavs, as numerous as they were in the 6th century, just appeared. I do say 6th because we know of Samo and Dervan, and of all the raids into the Byzantine Empire. Coming out of the Priypat marshes, all of them - CTS1211, M458, Y3120, and possibly others? I think not. Many of the IA/ late antiquity cultures in central and eastern Europe were multi ethnic. In fact most were. Certainly borders for these cultures were fluid and there was interaction among them in many instances. Kiev may have been one, but not the only.

[Aspar]

What is your view of the transition timeline from Proto-Slav to Slav? Mine is involved with the emergence of the word "Bog" instead of "Dievas"" "Dievs" or something close to this for the Deity.

So you are actually thinking that the Iranian influence on proto-Slavs is what made the transition to Slavs?

[ambron]

The source of Iranian borrowings to the Proto-Slavic language were most likely the Central European Scythians, living, among others, in Hungary and Poland (Chotyniec). This is all the more likely as the genetics of many of these Scythians were Slavic. For example:

DA197 R1a-Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340 (xYP371,P278.2)
Target: Scythian_HUNA197
Distance: 1.3804% / 0.01380425
38.8 HUN_Baden_LCA
33.2 Baltic_EST_BA
25.6 Corded_Ware_DEU
2.0 POL_Globular_Amphora
0.4 SWE_Motala_HG

Distance to: Scythian_HUNA197
0.03088295 Slovenian
0.03146443 Croatian
0.03146927 Austrian
0.03281915 Hungarian
0.03707968 Bosnian
0.03772270 German_East
0.03780998 Czech
0.03819415 German
0.04016662 Slovakian
0.04123845 Montenegrin

[George]

So you are proposing an eastern origin because of couple of Iranian related words? We have talked about this before and West Slavs are Slavs as well and whatever theory we come up with needs to take them into acount as well West Slavic Y-DNA being what it is any origin too the east would require women to Slavize West Slavic lands.

Your question answered my question.
West Slavs have the word, and it's not just any word. It tells you a lot, like the Russian "dienga" for money
Did Hungarian women hungarize Hungary? (:=) Dont tell me (:=)))

[Aspar]

The source of Iranian borrowings to the Proto-Slavic language were most likely the Central European Scythians, living, among others, in Hungary and Poland (Chotyniec). This is all the more likely as the genetics of many of these Scythians were Slavic. For example:

DA197 R1a-Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340 (xYP371,P278.2)
Target: Scythian_HUNA197
Distance: 1.3804% / 0.01380425
38.8 HUN_Baden_LCA
33.2 Baltic_EST_BA
25.6 Corded_Ware_DEU
2.0 POL_Globular_Amphora
0.4 SWE_Motala_HG

Distance to: Scythian_HUNA197
0.03088295 Slovenian
0.03146443 Croatian
0.03146927 Austrian
0.03281915 Hungarian
0.03707968 Bosnian
0.03772270 German_East
0.03780998 Czech
0.03819415 German
0.04016662 Slovakian
0.04123845 Montenegrin

What are the chances these Hungarian Scythians mediated the marker I-Y3120 to Slavs?
It seems to me these Central European Scythians were largely Scythianized Celts and Lusatians?