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Thread: The Ashkenazi founder event pre-dated the 14th century (discussion)

  1. #151
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    What if the Levantine ancestry in both Western Jews & Southern Italians is also diverse in origin?
    Mediated Geographically i mean?
    (Egypt - Jordan - Palestine - to - Syria - Anatolia)?
    Would that explain the preferance?

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    EAJs are substantially closer to Erfurt_ME, however they can be modelled as ~40% Erfurt_EU. There are grounds to suspect that, beyond originating in Western Knaan, Erfurt_EU ultimately has its roots either in Byzantine Jewry or the communities that settled in Roman Pannonia (possibly both).
    A connection to the quite antique Jewish communities of Roman Pannonia thing would be a real bombshell.

    The high Slavic % in Erfurt_EU is the one thing that I truly never would've predicted about the Jews of greater medieval Bohemia/Bavaria / West Knaanim / bney khes. Compare it with the rounding error's share of Northwest European ancestry in Erfurt_ME, i.e. Rhineland-type Jews / Ashkenazim proper. There are 3 possible explanations for this discrepancy, in my book. I'm fairly certain #1 and #2 are at play here; #3 is more speculative.

    1. Erfurt_EU represents an unevenly Slavic-inflected subset of BAB/West Knaanic Jews, whose average is not representative of the BAB/West Knaanic baseline, but rather, represents BAB/West Knaanic baseline levels of Slavic plus an additional layer of later Slavic admixture, however thick, which would have been missing from other BAB/West Knaanic subgroups.

    2. BAB/West Knaanic Jews were that much more admixed with their hosts north of the Alps than Rhineland Jews because of the later, less complete Christianization of the Slavs than of the Germans and the proto-French.

    3. BAB/West Knaanic Jews were more Slavic than Rhineland Jews were German/Northern French because their roots in northern/central Europe as a community are deeper. See: the Pannonian Jewish continuity hypothesis.



    Waldman et al. only offer speculation about the date and nature of this Slavic admixture, although it’s clear that a certain level of it was universal in the more easterly of the two communities, and probably dates back to the early Middle Ages.

    On this point, I also think it’s important that people remember that just because a large share of modern Eastern Ashkenazi Slavic admixture was already baked into the cake by the first few centuries of the second millennium CE, it’d be foolish for us to assume that it’s the end of the story. Along this axis, and at least one other, there’s reason to believe that Ashkenazim today can’t be completely accounted for by Erfurt_ME + Erfurt_EU.

    But I digress.



    I also want to highlight one underappreciated reason that the non-Slavic share of the profile of Erfurt_EU might converge with that of Erfurt_ME: because of a partial shared immediate origin in Italy. While a late antique Byzantine or Roman era Pannonian origin for BAB/West Knaanic Jews makes sense as part of the story, as far as I know, there’s no real positive evidence for it. A role for Italian Jews has also been proposed—while there’s no more proof of this than the Byzantine or Pannonian story, there’s also no less.

    Well, up until now. Erfurt_EU includes an individual in R-L4, which is very likely Italian (/Italic) in origin; otherwise, its origins could be even more westerly. Meanwhile, there’s another individual who’s almost certainly in E-Y6940, whose immediate upstream structure is evidence of a Western/Central Mediterranean Jewish origin in late Roman times (in the form of E-Y6923’s MRCA). While it’s not impossible that E-Y6940 owes to a migration from the Western/Central Mediterranean to Byzantine lands and then up to Bohemia/Bavaria, it’s on balance less likely than an Italy -> Bohemia/Bavaria story.

    This leads me to say that at least on a circumstantial level, we’ve found the first clear evidence of a partial Italian Jewish/West-Central Mediterranean origin for the Jews of BAB/West Knaan. I’ll be curious to see if any lines of evidence emerge from these data to support any of the other routes.
    The clock indicates the moment—but what does eternity indicate?

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  4. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianbear View Post
    Indeed. While Pali Christians do have some Arabian admixture which is also true for Samaritans(look for Erikl's model here), they remain the closest to the local ancient Levantine while Palestinian Muslims are obviously admixed like with western Jewry(they share the same level of Levantine ancestry as to Italian, Romaniote, Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews of Germany). As for me, it's plain and obvious that I have Southern shift like all Palestinian Muslims(my Egyptian admixture is the highest non-Levantine ancestry in my genome), but interestingly, I have much higher Iranian ancestry while my Arabian admixture is pretty weak which makes sense since I came from the coastal of the Galilee(we used to have a lot of Persians that were living in the northern parts of Palestine region or Bar el-Sham as it is called back in the day).
    Also your elevated Iranian-like ancestry could be Kurdish - not known to many, but many Muslim Kurds settled here centuries ago and alot of muslim Palestinians have non-negligible Kurdish ancestry which might get mistaken as Iranian.
    Check out my Hidden Content

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  6. #154
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    Assuming, not a given obviously, that the Euro admix in Western Jews is partially from Roman "provincials", I made this model.
    First this is the provincial average (made from Rome late antiquity, Collegno, Szolad, Istria, Austrian and French samples that resemble North Italians)

     
    Distance to: Provincials_Average
    0.00936221 Italian_Veneto
    0.01022080 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.01145423 Italian_Bergamo
    0.01490099 Italian_Piedmont
    0.01591470 Italian_Lombardy
    0.01930307 Swiss_Italian
    0.01947893 Italian_Northeast
    0.02062635 Italian_Liguria
    0.02198417 Spanish_Mallorca
    0.02229555 French_Provence

    Target: Provincials_Average
    Distance: 0.8962% / 0.00896243
    51.0 Italic
    18.0 Goths
    10.4 Ancient_Greeks_Average
    7.6 DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg
    7.2 Levant_IA
    3.0 Iran_IA
    2.2 Caucasus
    0.6 KAZ_Botai



    Then I averaged all the IA samples from the Levant (without outliers):

     
    Distance to: Levant_IA
    0.02091464 Lebanese_Christian
    0.02381091 Samaritan
    0.02425173 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    0.03180364 Druze
    0.03183008 Lebanese_Druze
    0.03573403 Karaite_Egypt
    0.03758705 Lebanese_Muslim
    0.03985475 Cypriot
    0.04193074 Iraqi_Jew
    0.04381991 Syrian_Jew
    0.04558803 Kurdish_Jew
    0.04747401 Jordanian
    0.04881241 Palestinian
    0.05050374 Tunisian_Jew
    0.05110323 Romaniote_Jew


    This is the result:


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  8. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianbear View Post
    Indeed. While Pali Christians do have some Arabian admixture which is also true for Samaritans(look for Erikl's model here), they remain the closest to the local ancient Levantine while Palestinian Muslims are obviously admixed like with western Jewry(they share the same level of Levantine ancestry as to Italian, Romaniote, Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews of Germany). As for me, it's plain and obvious that I have Southern shift like all Palestinian Muslims(my Egyptian admixture is the highest non-Levantine ancestry in my genome), but interestingly, I have much higher Iranian ancestry while my Arabian admixture is pretty weak which makes sense since I came from the coastal of the Galilee(we used to have a lot of Persians that were living in the northern parts of Palestine region or Bar el-Sham as it is called back in the day).
    You'll also notice that if you also add Assyrian to the sources in such a model, Levantine Christians will pick up significant ancestry from it, suggesting the potential for cosmopolitan gene flow between Near Eastern Christians back in the day.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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  10. #156
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    Hello gang,

    I was able to get access to the BAMs for Y chromosomes of the three Z2103 samples from this paper. Here is what I was able to glean so far:

    i13865: R-Y19847 (xA13359, xBY17497, xBY51776, xY143990).
    - This fits nicely with the known major Jewish haplogroup. The sample was positive for the Y19847 SNP itself as well as two other SNP equivalents (FT19323 and Y19850). Coverage was okay. No further downstream positive SNPs identified, but sample was negative for downstream SNPs A13359 (SNP equivalent of A13358), BY17497, and both BY51776 and Y143990 (SNP equivalents of Y143997).

    i14904: R-Y4364 (x484551, xBY41455, xFGCLR459, xY19860, xSK540, xY104897)
    - This was negative for almost all major branches of Y4364, including the major and minor Jewish branches in Yfull's and FTDNA's databases. This sample might be either truly Y4364* or somewhere within Y4366 but without Y19860.

    i14853: R-FGC14682 (based on positivity of SNP equivalent FGC14625).
    - The coverage on this sample was not great, but this does fit with another major Jewish Z2103 branch. No coverage with anything downstream, unfortunately, either positive or negative.

    Hopefully the rest of the samples will be made available soon.
    Last edited by eblashko; 06-13-2022 at 09:07 PM.

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  12. #157
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    Eurogenes K13 values (thanks to Salento from Eupedia)

    Code:
    I13861_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_28.29%,12.99,6.72,19.54,13.05,39.70,5.71,1.38,0,0,0,0.79,0,0.12
    I13862_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_70.83%,15.74,18.25,16.62,10.77,25.75,5.79,4.35,0.17,1.29,0.57,0.35,0.34,0
    I13863_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_22.78%,11.55,4.48,21.79,9.91,39.93,7.34,0,1.35,0.05,0.63,1.08,1.85,0.04
    I13864_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_58.15%,14.81,2.66,23.98,8.73,40.12,6.57,1.25,0,0,0,0,0.73,1.14
    I13865_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_47.43%,17.88,4.47,20.21,7.77,38.18,7.80,0,1.56,0,0,0.56,1.31,0.27
    I13866_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_55.33%,20.08,14.61,17.13,8.85,29.51,2.19,3.09,1.55,1.02,1.07,0.74,0,0.16
    I13867_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_67.05%,16.78,7.86,18.13,8.62,35.15,8.26,0,1.29,0.85,1.12,0,0.96,0.97
    I13868_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_53.41%,19.16,16.65,19.12,8.91,25.89,3.36,1.20,1.65,0,1.09,0.56,1.91,0.51
    I13869_F-Eurogenes_K13_cov_52.00%,21.51,10.25,20.09,10.05,23.53,8.58,0,2.06,3.08,0,0,0.87,0
    I13870_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_31.52%,13.58,4.34,17.24,9.14,45.54,8.29,0.33,0,0,0,1.20,0.34,0
    I14736_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_59.21%,19.56,6.60,18.48,11.94,31.29,8.44,0,0.14,1.06,0.16,0,0.83,1.49
    I14737_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_33.67%,11.47,9.62,18.66,7.59,41.51,6.90,0,0,0.29,0,1.12,0,2.84
    I14738_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_71.04%,20.15,18.10,15.23,11.82,23.57,5.78,1.57,1.10,1.03,1.66,0,0,0
    I14739_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_28.47%,12.40,4.80,22.29,11.32,38.35,7.23,0,0.68,0,0,0.90,1.52,0.52
    I14740_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_71.84%,19.57,17.26,14.24,11.71,24.38,5.62,0.59,0.95,2.74,0.92,0,1.11,0.89
    I14741_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_10.95%,12.93,8.67,21.80,3.99,45.21,3.90,1.15,1.32,0.17,0,0.88,0,0
    I14846_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_5.18%,12.51,0,23.57,12.53,36.95,8.84,1.44,2.30,0,0,0,0,1.86
    I14847_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_73.06%,21.60,14.38,17.23,9.46,27.99,3.47,1.45,1.94,0,0.38,0.50,0.09,1.51
    I14848_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_1.17%,1.85,11.94,24.12,20.12,31.35,6.79,1.52,1.49,0,0.84,0,0,0
    I14849_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_1.22%,3.09,14.83,14.43,0,55.61,6.61,0,0,0,0,0,5.43,0
    I14850_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_49.02%,20.19,18.50,14.35,11.37,29.36,2.14,0,0,1.76,0,0.36,1.28,0.69
    I14851_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_38.41%,14.96,5.43,18.68,11.97,38.70,6.66,0,0.94,0,1.30,0.06,0.87,0.42
    I14852_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_22.05%,19.71,3.72,19.29,11.88,34.34,9.97,0,0.48,0,0.39,0.22,0,0
    I14853_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_45.63%,18.18,11.10,18.12,12.52,33.25,2.78,0,0.93,0.90,0.01,0.04,0,2.18
    I14854_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_1.35%,14.30,3.12,11.10,1.50,44.19,16.52,9.25,0,0,0,0,0,0
    I14855_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_3.39%,22.66,11.72,26.73,0,21.60,15.85,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.44
    I14897_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_19.67%,22.82,7.75,15.29,14.12,28.90,8.16,0,0,2.02,0,0,0.94,0
    I14898_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_9.81%,25.51,2.23,21.08,6.46,34.90,4.82,0.94,0,0.95,0.14,1.00,0.36,1.59
    I14899_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_1.63%,21.67,21.37,6.95,6.55,33.45,10.01,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
    I14900_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_0.93%,0,3.17,45.74,39.05,5.67,0,0,0,0,0,4.44,1.91,0
    I14901_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_5.73%,7.19,24.90,20.90,11.22,21.40,4.67,0,2.26,2.99,2.03,0,0,2.44
    I14903_F_Eurogenes_K13_cov_51.78%,15.21,4.17,19.21,13.47,40.77,4.99,1.17,0.23,0.49,0.10,0,0,0.19
    I14904_M_Eurogenes_K13_cov_60.46%,23.59,11.79,19.65,9.51,22.70,5.28,0,2.64,2.36,0,1.26,0.30,0.94
    Sample North_Atlantic Baltic West_Med West_Asian East_Med Red_Sea South_Asian East_Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian Northeast_African Sub-Saharan
    I13861_F_cov_28,29% 12,99 6,72 19,54 13,05 39,7 5,71 1,38 0 0 0 0,79 0 0,12
    I13862_M_cov_70,83% 15,74 18,25 16,62 10,77 25,75 5,79 4,35 0,17 1,29 0,57 0,35 0,34 0
    I13863_F_cov_22,78% 11,55 4,48 21,79 9,91 39,93 7,34 0 1,35 0,05 0,63 1,08 1,85 0,04
    I13864_M_cov_58,15% 14,81 2,66 23,98 8,73 40,12 6,57 1,25 0 0 0 0 0,73 1,14
    I13865_M_cov_47,43% 17,88 4,47 20,21 7,77 38,18 7,8 0 1,56 0 0 0,56 1,31 0,27
    I13866_M_cov_55,33% 20,08 14,61 17,13 8,85 29,51 2,19 3,09 1,55 1,02 1,07 0,74 0 0,16
    I13867_F_cov_67,05% 16,78 7,86 18,13 8,62 35,15 8,26 0 1,29 0,85 1,12 0 0,96 0,97
    I13868_M_cov_53,41% 19,16 16,65 19,12 8,91 25,89 3,36 1,2 1,65 0 1,09 0,56 1,91 0,51
    I13869_F-Eurogenes_K13_cov_52,00% 21,51 10,25 20,09 10,05 23,53 8,58 0 2,06 3,08 0 0 0,87 0
    I13870_M_cov_31,52% 13,58 4,34 17,24 9,14 45,54 8,29 0,33 0 0 0 1,2 0,34 0
    I14736_F_cov_59,21% 19,56 6,6 18,48 11,94 31,29 8,44 0 0,14 1,06 0,16 0 0,83 1,49
    I14737_F_cov_33,67% 11,47 9,62 18,66 7,59 41,51 6,9 0 0 0,29 0 1,12 0 2,84
    I14738_F_cov_71,04% 20,15 18,1 15,23 11,82 23,57 5,78 1,57 1,1 1,03 1,66 0 0 0
    I14739_F_cov_28,47% 12,4 4,8 22,29 11,32 38,35 7,23 0 0,68 0 0 0,9 1,52 0,52
    I14740_F_cov_71,84% 19,57 17,26 14,24 11,71 24,38 5,62 0,59 0,95 2,74 0,92 0 1,11 0,89
    I14741_F_cov_10,95% 12,93 8,67 21,8 3,99 45,21 3,9 1,15 1,32 0,17 0 0,88 0 0
    I14846_M_cov_5,18% 12,51 0 23,57 12,53 36,95 8,84 1,44 2,3 0 0 0 0 1,86
    I14847_M_cov_73,06% 21,6 14,38 17,23 9,46 27,99 3,47 1,45 1,94 0 0,38 0,5 0,09 1,51
    I14848_M_cov_1,17% 1,85 11,94 24,12 20,12 31,35 6,79 1,52 1,49 0 0,84 0 0 0
    I14849_F_cov_1,22% 3,09 14,83 14,43 0 55,61 6,61 0 0 0 0 0 5,43 0
    I14850_F_cov_49,02% 20,19 18,5 14,35 11,37 29,36 2,14 0 0 1,76 0 0,36 1,28 0,69
    I14851_F_cov_38,41% 14,96 5,43 18,68 11,97 38,7 6,66 0 0,94 0 1,3 0,06 0,87 0,42
    I14852_F_cov_22,05% 19,71 3,72 19,29 11,88 34,34 9,97 0 0,48 0 0,39 0,22 0 0
    I14853_M_cov_45,63% 18,18 11,1 18,12 12,52 33,25 2,78 0 0,93 0,9 0,01 0,04 0 2,18
    I14854_F_cov_1,35% 14,3 3,12 11,1 1,5 44,19 16,52 9,25 0 0 0 0 0 0
    I14855_M_cov_3,39% 22,66 11,72 26,73 0 21,6 15,85 0 0 0 0 0 0 1,44
    I14897_F_cov_19,67% 22,82 7,75 15,29 14,12 28,9 8,16 0 0 2,02 0 0 0,94 0
    I14898_F_cov_9,81% 25,51 2,23 21,08 6,46 34,9 4,82 0,94 0 0,95 0,14 1 0,36 1,59
    I14899_M_cov_1,63% 21,67 21,37 6,95 6,55 33,45 10,01 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    I14900_M_cov_0,93% 0 3,17 45,74 39,05 5,67 0 0 0 0 0 4,44 1,91 0
    I14901_F_cov_5,73% 7,19 24,9 20,9 11,22 21,4 4,67 0 2,26 2,99 2,03 0 0 2,44
    I14903_F_cov_51,78% 15,21 4,17 19,21 13,47 40,77 4,99 1,17 0,23 0,49 0,1 0 0 0,19
    I14904_M_cov_60,46% 23,59 11,79 19,65 9,51 22,7 5,28 0 2,64 2,36 0 1,26 0,3 0,94

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  14. #158
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    Should hopefully be able to post the remaining Y haplogroups in the next day or so.

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  16. #159
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    aDNA Match (1st)
    Austria_Wels:R10667
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    Algeria_Necropole_Orientale:R10770
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    Guanche:gun008
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-FT458078
    mtDNA (M)
    H65a

    African Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Russianbear View Post
    Indeed, or hell maybe Palestinian Christians do have some Coptic in the mix as well, but sadly we don't have their G25 average group data which sucks really.
    the Palestinian christian coordinates available seem quite southern shifted compared to Lebanese Christians which does confirm what you are saying

    Target: Palestinian_Christian
    Distance: 1.3826% / 0.01382562
    90.2 Lebanese_Christian
    9.8 Egyptian_Copt

    Target: Palestinian_Christian
    Distance: 1.3775% / 0.01377512
    92.4 Lebanese_Christian
    7.6 Yemeni_Mahra
    Distance to: abceff
    0.01873718 23.40% Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1511 + 76.60% Moroccan:MCA16

    Target: abceff
    Distance: 3.0158% / 0.03015844
    28.2 Levant_PPNB
    26.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    18.6 MAR_Taforalt
    9.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    8.0 COG_NgongoMbata_220BP
    5.4 IRN_Wezmeh_N
    3.6 Dinka
    0.2 WHG

  17. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Abceff For This Useful Post:

     FaerieQueene (06-20-2022),  Psynome (06-14-2022),  Russianbear (06-14-2022)

  18. #160
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,727

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    Assuming, not a given obviously, that the Euro admix in Western Jews is partially from Roman "provincials", I made this model.
    First this is the provincial average (made from Rome late antiquity, Collegno, Szolad, Istria, Austrian and French samples that resemble North Italians)

     
    Distance to: Provincials_Average
    0.00936221 Italian_Veneto
    0.01022080 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.01145423 Italian_Bergamo
    0.01490099 Italian_Piedmont
    0.01591470 Italian_Lombardy
    0.01930307 Swiss_Italian
    0.01947893 Italian_Northeast
    0.02062635 Italian_Liguria
    0.02198417 Spanish_Mallorca
    0.02229555 French_Provence

    Target: Provincials_Average
    Distance: 0.8962% / 0.00896243
    51.0 Italic
    18.0 Goths
    10.4 Ancient_Greeks_Average
    7.6 DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg
    7.2 Levant_IA
    3.0 Iran_IA
    2.2 Caucasus
    0.6 KAZ_Botai



    Then I averaged all the IA samples from the Levant (without outliers):

     
    Distance to: Levant_IA
    0.02091464 Lebanese_Christian
    0.02381091 Samaritan
    0.02425173 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    0.03180364 Druze
    0.03183008 Lebanese_Druze
    0.03573403 Karaite_Egypt
    0.03758705 Lebanese_Muslim
    0.03985475 Cypriot
    0.04193074 Iraqi_Jew
    0.04381991 Syrian_Jew
    0.04558803 Kurdish_Jew
    0.04747401 Jordanian
    0.04881241 Palestinian
    0.05050374 Tunisian_Jew
    0.05110323 Romaniote_Jew


    This is the result:

    The ratio of Levantine in this model between Ashkenazim & Mainland Southern Italians seems a bit off.
    I’d expect this type of Ratio between Ashkenazim & Western Sicilians but not mainland Campania.
    Try adding an Anatolian/North west Asian component to the model and I imagine you will see a reduction in Levantine scored by Italian Campania.

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to Claudio For This Useful Post:

     Ariel90 (06-14-2022)

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