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Thread: The Ashkenazi founder event pre-dated the 14th century (discussion)

  1. #51
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    ^^^ This one:

    VK474 dated to around year 975 AD
    mtDNA: J1d
    Y-DNA: E1b1b1b2a1a4 (this is a typically Jewish subclade today)

    G25 coordinates:

    Code:
    VK474___AD_975___Coverage_78.60%,0.126344,0.135065,0.072407,0.07106,0.049548,0.018128,0.00705,0.009461,0.003886,-0.021322,0.001461,-0.009891,0.016947,0.030415,-0.012351,0.01432,0.016689,0.002407,0.001383,0.003877,-0.012852,-0.003957,0.008504,-0.004458,-0.00491
    Mixed Mode (without Lithuanians):

    Target: VK474___AD_975___Coverage_78.60%
    Distance: 2.8096% / 0.02809613 | ADC: 0.5x RC
    44.6 Russian_Pskov
    31.8 Sorb_Niederlausitz
    23.6 Slovakian

    Distances (without Lithuanians):

    Distance to: VK474___AD_975___Coverage_78.60%
    0.03078128 Ukrainian_Rivne
    0.03297902 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
    0.03326560 Sorb_Niederlausitz
    0.03398986 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
    0.03458620 Polish
    0.03482369 Belarusian
    0.03567197 Russian_Pskov
    0.03652714 Russian_Voronez
    0.03697973 Russian_Smolensk
    0.03702679 Ukrainian_Dnipro

    =====

    E1b1b could be quite common among Early Slavs as their ancestors could assimilate it from Non-Indo-Europeans (already Trypillian Culture in Ukraine had E1b1b).

    Carlos Quiles even claims that E1b1b is Proto-Slavic, but I'm skeptical (he will do anything to argue that R1a is Finno-Ugric and anything but R1a is Indo-European):

    https://indo-european.eu/2019/04/com...group-e1b-v13/

    Nevertheless, we do have evidence that E1b1b was present among Early Slavs (even if surely not as numerous as R1a and I2a).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-17-2022 at 11:50 PM.

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  3. #52
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    By the way, is this a typically Jewish subclade (is it possible to tell based on Y-37)?:

    Code:
    DYS393,DYS390,DYS19,DYS391,DYS385,DYS426,DYS388,DYS439,DYS389I,DYS392,DYS389II,DYS458,DYS459,DYS455,DYS454,DYS447,DYS437,DYS448,DYS449,DYS464,DYS460,Y-GATA-H4,YCAII,DYS456,DYS607,DYS576,DYS570,CDY,DYS442,DYS438
    13,24,13,10,17-18,11,12,13,13,11,30,15,9-9,11,11,26,14,20,33,14-16-17-17,9,11,17-21,17,12,18,20,30-34,11,10
    Predictors give him only E-V13.

    This is a Western Polish sample.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-18-2022 at 01:24 AM.

  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    It’s T-CTS6507. Your branch is one of the two major possibilities, and then there’s one other minor one.

    Again, the caveat for any of these is that there could be lineages that have since gone extinct.
    Thank you -- that's awesome.

    What's the other Ashkenazi lineage downstream of T-CTS6507?

    For what's worth, I also share the mtDNA with him...

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  6. #54
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    My mtdna H11b1 is found in these ancient samples! Part of the Erfurt-EU subgroup. It was already found in Central Europe earlier, so it's interesting to see that it was already part of the Jewish diaspora in the 14th century. I thought it was a later addition to the gene pool as it's not a common Ashkenazi mtdna. Maybe this ancient sample is my ancestor

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  8. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeeprince View Post
    It was already found in Central Europe earlier
    In which ancient DNA sample(s)?

  9. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    In which ancient DNA sample(s)?
    I don't remember off the top of my head - but if I remember correctly, it was an ancient sample from present-day Slovakia.

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  11. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    It’s T-CTS6507. Your branch is one of the two major possibilities, and then there’s one other minor one.

    Again, the caveat for any of these is that there could be lineages that have since gone extinct.
    https://sites.google.com/view/ashken...ashkenazi-jews

    Big group for T the snp you noted


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpydaddybear View Post
    Thank you -- that's awesome.

    What's the other Ashkenazi lineage downstream of T-CTS6507?

    For what's worth, I also share the mtDNA with him...
    https://sites.google.com/view/ashken...ashkenazi-jews

    they mixed the 3 branches of T ............T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3 .............so you need to sort via the snp

    these 3 branches formed 13500 years ago
    Last edited by vettor; 05-18-2022 at 06:04 AM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

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  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    It is puzzling that despite high Slavic admixture they don't have any obviously Slavic mtDNA or Y. Or do they?

    E1b1b was common among Early Slavs, but I'm not sure if E-L791:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....Slavic-samples

    Maybe you remember there was an autosomally 100% Eastern European sample with a typically Jewish subclade of E1b1b among VK samples (Margaryan 2020 study).

    That particular VK sample could be a Polabian Slav because he was from the Baltic Sea region.
    If you’ll notice on YFull, that individual’s closest connection is Saudi.
    The clock indicates the moment—but what does eternity indicate?

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  17. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpydaddybear View Post
    Thank you -- that's awesome.

    What's the other Ashkenazi lineage downstream of T-CTS6507?

    For what's worth, I also share the mtDNA with him...
    T-Y91965, which is a bit bigger than T-FGC30190.

    There’s a tiny one here, as well: https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y110311/
    The clock indicates the moment—but what does eternity indicate?

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