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Thread: Why a large portion of E-V13 in the Iron Age might have been Dacian

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    Why a large portion of E-V13 in the Iron Age might have been Dacian

    I wrote much about how E-V13 is likely to have evolved and grown in very Eastern, Transtisza Hungary, Eastern Slovakia, Western Ukraine and Western Romania. From which cultures which regularly used cremation burials, including collective cremation burials with scattered ashes, like they being later described and archaeologically attested for Dacians.
    The most basic prehistorical development of E-V13 goes - going after the currently available data as of May 2022 - in my opinion from the wider Cotofeni related groups to Makó-related, then -> Nyírség -> Otomani I -> Suciu de Sus/Berkesz-Demecser -> Gáva/Channelled Ware (Fluted Ware horizon)

    You can see the basic cultures which played a decisive role for the formation of Gáva/Channelled Ware on this map, in the color purple, from a nice map Carlos made:


    https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/...age-middle.jpg

    Note the related groups, mostly in what is now Romania, Berkesz (-Demecser), Suciu de Sus (Lăpuș I), Cehăluț, Igriţa and Western Wietenberg/Wietenberg-Noua mix. Piliny is the ancestral group for Kyjatice with stronger Tumulus culture influences and closer ties to Lusatians at the same time, in comparison to the other groups which can be considered Pre-Gáva in the wider sense.

    Obviously we have no samples from those time frame and regions, those cultural formations. And they mostly cremated.

    I also used YFull to gather some data as to when the major haplogroups had phases of expansion vs contraction, based on the numbers of new lineages per TMRCA dates. I made a thread about this here:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....d-out-of-YFull

    Going after all of that, and assuming my interpretations are basically right, one big question remained which is, where was the bulk of the E-V13 in the Iron Age and into the Roman period. Now going by the smoothed version of how E-V13 developed, there is something very, very noticeable, and that is that it was in free fall during the Roman conquest and colonisation period. There was zero E-V13 growth in that time frame between about 0-200 AD and even more, the later first small, then larger uptick, seem to be associated with tribals, especially Germanic migrations and Slavs. The largest uptick after the Roman era is in synchrony with the Eastern-Southern I-CTS10936 and R-Z280 expansion of the early Slavs.

    This means there was practically zero growth in the Roman era - in the Roman occupied territories. Just nothing.

    This is all the more noticeable, because J-L283 has downfall 200-300 years earlier, during the Illyrian conqest and rebellions period, but did recover and even steadily grow in the Roman period. But E-V13 did absolutely and categorically not, it just suffered in the most extreme way in that period. We have to assume there was very little growth, and many male lineages died out in that period from the Roman conquest to the end of the Roman era.

    The most likely explanation is in my opinion that a very large portion of E-V13 was primarily widespread among the Dacians. Now what happened in the wider Dacian sphere of things in that time frame:

    In 105, Trajan crossed the Danube river and besieged Decebalus' capital, Sarmizegetusa, but the siege failed because of Decebalus' allied tribes. However, Trajan was an optimist. He returned with a newly constituted army and took Sarmizegetusa by treachery. Decebalus fled into the mountains, but was cornered by pursuing Roman cavalry. Decebalus committed suicide rather than being captured by the Romans and be paraded as a slave, then be killed. The Roman captain took his head and right hand to Trajan, who had them displayed in the Forums. Trajan's Column in Rome was constructed to celebrate the conquest of Dacia.
    Only about half part of Dacia then became a Roman province,[192] with a newly built capital at Ulpia Traiana Sarmizegetusa, 40 km away from the site of Old Sarmisegetuza Regia, which was razed to the ground. The name of the Dacians' homeland, Dacia, became the name of a Roman province, and the name Dacians was used to designate the people in the region.[193] Roman Dacia, also Dacia Traiana or Dacia Felix, was a province of the Roman Empire from 106 to 271 or 275 AD.[194][unreliable source?][195][196] Its territory consisted of eastern and southeastern Transylvania, and the regions of Banat and Oltenia (located in modern Romania).[194] Dacia was organised from the beginning as an imperial province, and remained so throughout the Roman occupation.
    The tribes Daci Magni (Great Dacians), Costoboci (generally considered a Dacian subtribe), and Carpi remained outside the Roman empire, in what the Romans called Dacia Libera (Free Dacia).[193] By the early third century the "Free Dacians" were a significantly troublesome group, by now identified as the Carpi.[200] Bichir argues that the Carpi were the most powerful of the Dacian tribes who had become the principal enemy of the Romans in the region.[202] In 214 AD, Caracalla campaigned against the Free Dacians.[203] There were also campaigns against the Dacians recorded in 236 AD
    The Goths, a confederation of east German peoples, arrived in the southern Ukraine no later than 230.[165] During the next decade, a large section of them moved down the Black Sea coast and occupied much of the territory north of the lower Danube.[165] The Goths' advance towards the area north of the Black Sea involved competing with the indigenous population of Dacian-speaking Carpi, as well as indigenous Iranian-speaking Sarmatians and Roman garrison forces.[166] The Carpi, often called "Free Dacians", continued to dominate the anti-Roman coalition made up of themselves, Taifali, Astringi, Vandals, Peucini, and Goths until 248, when the Goths assumed the hegemony of the loose coalition.[167] The first lands taken over by the Thervingi Goths were in Moldavia, and only during the fourth century did they move in strength down into the Danubian plain.[168] The Carpi found themselves squeezed between the advancing Goths and the Roman province of Dacia.[165] In 275 AD, Aurelian surrendered the Dacian territory[clarification needed] to the Carpi and the Goths.[169] Over time, Gothic power in the region grew, at the Carpi's expense. The Germanic-speaking Goths replaced native Dacian-speakers as the dominant force around the Carpathian mountains.[170] Large numbers of Carpi, but not all of them, were admitted into the Roman empire in the twenty-five years or so after 290 AD.[171] Despite this evacuation of the Carpi around 300 AD, considerable groups of the natives (non-Romanized Dacians, Sarmatians and others) remained in place under Gothic domination.
    In 336 AD, Constantine took the title Dacicus Maximus 'great victor in Dacia', implying at least partial reconquest of Trajan Dacia.[173] In an inscription of 337, Constantine was commemorated officially as Germanicus Maximus, Sarmaticus, Gothicus Maximus, and Dacicus Maximus, meaning he had defeated the Germans, Sarmatians, Goths, and Dacians
    Dobrogea was not abandoned at all, but continued as part of the Roman Empire for over 350 years.[205] As late as AD 300, the tetrarchic emperors had resettled tens of thousands of Dacian Carpi inside the empire, dispersing them in communities the length of the Danube, from Austria to the Black Sea.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian...ermanic_tribes

    To sum it up, the time between about 0-400 AD were one series of catastrophies for the Dacian people. They suffered greatly under the pressure coming from the North (Germanics), East (Sarmatians) and especially the destruction caused by the Roman conquest and campaigns.

    Now let's look at the smoothed graph from the YFull data I made:



    Going by that, I think its quite likely that up to about half of all E-V13 lived around 0 AD in Dacian lands and with mixed Dacian-Sarmatian people. E-V13 clearly went down with the Illyrian and Macedonian wars, the Illyrian and Thracian uprisings, the defeat and conquest of the Celts. No doubt about that, its clearly visible, but the other half of E-V13 lineages counted did still well, just about the time of the Dacian wars. I don't think that's a mere coincidence or meaningless chance result of the data.

    Especially by looking at where E-V13 was found so far, in larger numbers: Viminacium, Timacum minus, Kapitan Andreevo. But primarily Viminacium, as the closest larger scale sample of people close to the Dacian sphere.

    I really do expect that large numbers of E-V13 carriers were still in the wider Dacian sphere in Roman period and largely moved South and being dispersed by subsequent population movements. The question is just which proportion of E-V13 was related to the Dacian sphere, but that a large fraction was, and be it just one quarter, is quite likely in my humble opinion.
    Last edited by Riverman; 05-25-2022 at 02:26 PM.

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