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    "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe"

    Now it’s official !
    Very important paper finally arriving.

    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Lecture by Prof. David Reich - "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe" - "The lecture will be held at the Israel Institute for Advanced Studies at 11am on Tuesday, 12 July 2022."

    "We present an integrative genetic history of the Southern Arc, an area divided geographically between West Asia and Europe, but which we define as spanning the culturally entangled regions of Anatolia and its neighbors, in both Europe (Aegean and the Balkans), and in West Asia (Cyprus, Armenia, the Levant, Iraq and Iran). We employ a new analytical framework to analyze genome-wide data at the individual level from a total of 1,320 ancient individuals, 731 of which are newly reported and address major gaps in the archaeogenetic record. We report the first ancient DNA from the world’s earliest farming cultures of southeastern Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, as well as the first Neolithic period data from Cyprus and Armenia, and discover that it was admixture of Natufian-related ancestry from the Levant—mediated by Mesopotamian and Levantine farmers, and marked by at least two expansions associated with dispersal of pre-pottery and pottery cultures—that generated a pan-West Asian Neolithic continuum. Our comprehensive sampling shows that Anatolia received hardly any genetic input from Europe or the Eurasian steppe from the Chalcolithic to the Iron Age; this contrasts with Southeastern Europe and Armenia that were impacted by major gene flow from Yamnaya steppe pastoralists.

    In the Balkans, we reveal a patchwork of Bronze Age populations with diverse proportions of steppe ancestry in the aftermath of the ~3000 BCE Yamnaya migrations, paralleling the linguistic diversity of Paleo-Balkan speakers. We provide insights into the Mycenaean period of the Aegean by documenting variation in the proportion of steppe ancestry (including some individuals who lack it altogether), and finding no evidence for systematic differences in steppe ancestry among social strata, such as those of the elite buried at the Palace of Nestor in Pylos.

    A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself. This ancestry, pervasive across numerous sites of Armenia of ~2000-600 BCE, was diluted during the ensuing centuries to only a third of its peak value, making no further western inroads from there into any part of Anatolia, including the geographically adjacent Lake Van center of the Iron Age Kingdom of Urartu. The impermeability of Anatolia to exogenous migration contrasts with our finding that the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows, both from West Asia, suggesting that the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc and that the steppe served only as a secondary staging area of Indo-European language dispersal. The demographic significance of Anatolia on a Mediterranean-wide scale is further documented by our finding that following the Roman conquest, the Anatolian population remained stable and became the geographic source for much of the ancestry of Imperial Rome itself."
    https://iias.huji.ac.il/event/david-reich-lecture
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    Indeed. Without trying to sound rude, it's time for the Reich lab to lay their cards on the table and show the rest of us why they have been so confidently placing PIE in West Asia. No matter what the result this paper will be a milestone.

    Edit: I forgot to add

    We're also probably getting answers with regards to the origin of Greek, Armenian, Phrygian, Dacian, Albanian etc. Very exciting.
    Last edited by Psynome; 06-17-2022 at 12:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psynome View Post
    Indeed. Without trying to sound rude, it's time for the Reich lab to lay their cards on the table and show the rest of us why they have been so confidently placing PIE in West Asia. No matter what the result this paper will be a milestone.

    Edit: I forgot to add

    We're also probably getting answers with regards to the origin of Greek, Armenian, Phrygian, Dacian, Albanian etc. Very exciting.
    Our comprehensive sampling shows that Anatolia received hardly any genetic input from Europe or the Eurasian steppe from the Chalcolithic to the Iron Age; this contrasts with Southeastern Europe and Armenia that were impacted by major gene flow from Yamnaya steppe pastoralists.
    We will see what "hardly any" means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    We will see what "hardly any" means.
    If pristine IE were just EHG ( Ukraine hg type) + EEF it is obvious that once they migrated to Anatolia going through rich EEF territory ( the balkans) their HG profile would have been watered down to basically zero. The lack of steppe ancestry (EHG/CHG) in this respect is meaningless in order to disprove a Pontic origin for PIE.
    Last edited by etrusco; 06-17-2022 at 01:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    If pristine IE were just EHG ( Ukraine hg type) + EEF it is obvious that once they migrated to Anatolia going through rich EEF territory ( the balkans) their HG profile would have been watered down to basically zero. The lack of steppe ancestry (EHG/CHG) in this respect is meaningless in order to disprove a Pontic origin for PIE.
    We know that R1b wasn't in Anatolia during the Neolithic from the data we have, barring one sample of V1636 I think. However, you're looking at 12-18% in modern Turks which couldn't all have come from Central Asia. In fact most of the data from Central Asian Turks of the period suggests R-Z2103 was a minor lineage, which leaves Bronze and Iron Ages to be the period of migration of R1b to Anatolia.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster 1100 BC
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Field: R-U106
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    For example on some PCA maps I have seen some Northern Albanians cluster with some North Italians like Piedmont, Swiss Italian etc, some of these Italians seem to cluster East wards . So ''North Italian'' is rather a broad category and represents a large cluster where some of them meet the Northern Albanian cluster even from what I have seen.

    Also I am not sure if this has been posted in this thread but check out this medieval sample from Northern Macedonia which is clearly Slavic influenced and compare it to pre-Slavic samples

    Distance to: MKD_Mdv:I2530
    0.02649123 Moldovan
    0.02950083 Serbian
    0.03085576 Romanian
    0.03195199 Montenegrin
    0.03443137 Bulgarian
    0.03584209 Bosnian
    0.03609124 Macedonian
    0.03677063 Croatian
    0.03776997 Gagauz
    0.03817394 Slovenian
    0.04001955 Hungarian
    0.04159292 Austrian
    0.04182041 Italian_Northeast
    0.04568623 French_Alsace
    0.04744877 German_Erlangen
    0.04853749 Swiss_German
    0.04883996 Turkish_Deliorman
    0.04886725 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
    0.04945107 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.05081562 French_Nord
    0.05110731 French_Provence
    0.05140062 Italian_Liguria
    0.05199775 Italian_Veneto
    0.05236700 French_Seine-Maritime
    0.05279278 German



    I have even seen Albanians who are more north than Bulgarians and Slavic Macedonians, I believe it is possible because the pre-Slavic ancestor of Bulgarians and some of the Slavs in Macedonia was possibly more South like those Thracians . But the Slavs in Macedonia have also mixed with Vlachs and Albanians and Albanians have been assimilated. They show high IBD sharing with Albanian population.
    Last edited by xz1333; 09-23-2022 at 06:44 PM.

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    I don't know why you claim that Albanians have become more South-East, for example when I added these samples on some maps here https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views

    In the first map on Europe1 when I added them many Albanians, including me, actually cluster more north than these samples and more East, and some Greek Macedonian individuals are even more north with some Albanians and Bulgarians and Greek Thessaly is south of us, maybe that's why I get Greek Macedonia and North Italy. This would mean Greek Macedonia has a lot of Slavic influence. On the other map I added them on Europe 2 they cluster with Albanian regions or somewhere around there. But I was told all these samples are low quality by the people who found them. Years ago I remember that Dalmatian sample clustered with Bulgarians and Balkans yet on K15 she was more west.

    If we go by the first PCA then Albanians have become more North-East than these samples. If we go by the 2nd, they more or less cluster around Albanian regions and Italians. That second map is weird since even Spaniards and Iberians cluster there.

    I also don't know why you refer to people as ''nationalists'' , does one need some kind of pure genetic continuity to claim descent from a population ?

    We don't know what exactly happened during Barbarian incursion . I will try and add more samples including in Croatia, Macedonia to see where they land. Those Thracians btw are extremely South and Neolithic.
    Last edited by xz1333; 09-23-2022 at 09:55 PM.

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    Btw, I tried to add those medieval and post medieval samples from Albania to the first PCA Map and they don't even cluster with Europeans which is even more weird , it seems at this point to me that all these PCA Maps and calculators and DNA tests are inaccurate .

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    I just added those post medieval and medieval samples from Albania on that first PCA Map called ''Europe1'' , now this is really interesting, because those medieval samples cluster more or less the same as those Cinamaks on that Map it seems, now for post medieval they range from clustering like those Cinamak samples to more East like modern Albanians . Now on the second PCA Map they all more or less cluster somewhere in a similar range with Greeks, Albanians and other South Euros.

    If we go by the first PCA Map, then we can pretty much say the biggest change among Albanians actually happened during Ottoman Period and even there you find samples that are like Italians and like Iron Age Illyrians .

    We are forgetting lots of Vlachs were assimilated into Albanians during Ottoman period. And not just Slavs. Anyone know where Vlachs cluster ?
    Last edited by xz1333; 09-23-2022 at 10:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xz1333 View Post
    I just added those post medieval and medieval samples from Albania on that first PCA Map called ''Europe1'' , now this is really interesting, because those medieval samples cluster more or less the same as those Cinamaks on that Map it seems, now for post medieval they range from clustering like those Cinamak samples to more East like modern Albanians . Now on the second PCA Map they all more or less cluster somewhere in a similar range with Greeks, Albanians and other South Euros.

    If we go by the first PCA Map, then we can pretty much say the biggest change among Albanians actually happened during Ottoman Period and even there you find samples that are like Italians and like Iron Age Illyrians .

    We are forgetting lots of Vlachs were assimilated into Albanians during Ottoman period. And not just Slavs. Anyone know where Vlachs cluster ?
    Full breakdown of basic components of Southern Arc samples from post-medieval Albania, IA Albania and the Slav from Anatolia:



    Claims about high Near Eastern or high Slavic ancestry in these post-medieval samples describe something which doesn't exist.

    EDIT:

    And I will say the same thing for anyone who claims that these mainland Greek averages have significant Slavic ancestry:



    It's just impossible.
    Last edited by Bruzmi; 09-24-2022 at 01:29 AM.

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