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    "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe"

    Now it’s official !
    Very important paper finally arriving.

    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Lecture by Prof. David Reich - "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe" - "The lecture will be held at the Israel Institute for Advanced Studies at 11am on Tuesday, 12 July 2022."

    "We present an integrative genetic history of the Southern Arc, an area divided geographically between West Asia and Europe, but which we define as spanning the culturally entangled regions of Anatolia and its neighbors, in both Europe (Aegean and the Balkans), and in West Asia (Cyprus, Armenia, the Levant, Iraq and Iran). We employ a new analytical framework to analyze genome-wide data at the individual level from a total of 1,320 ancient individuals, 731 of which are newly reported and address major gaps in the archaeogenetic record. We report the first ancient DNA from the world’s earliest farming cultures of southeastern Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, as well as the first Neolithic period data from Cyprus and Armenia, and discover that it was admixture of Natufian-related ancestry from the Levant—mediated by Mesopotamian and Levantine farmers, and marked by at least two expansions associated with dispersal of pre-pottery and pottery cultures—that generated a pan-West Asian Neolithic continuum. Our comprehensive sampling shows that Anatolia received hardly any genetic input from Europe or the Eurasian steppe from the Chalcolithic to the Iron Age; this contrasts with Southeastern Europe and Armenia that were impacted by major gene flow from Yamnaya steppe pastoralists.

    In the Balkans, we reveal a patchwork of Bronze Age populations with diverse proportions of steppe ancestry in the aftermath of the ~3000 BCE Yamnaya migrations, paralleling the linguistic diversity of Paleo-Balkan speakers. We provide insights into the Mycenaean period of the Aegean by documenting variation in the proportion of steppe ancestry (including some individuals who lack it altogether), and finding no evidence for systematic differences in steppe ancestry among social strata, such as those of the elite buried at the Palace of Nestor in Pylos.

    A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself. This ancestry, pervasive across numerous sites of Armenia of ~2000-600 BCE, was diluted during the ensuing centuries to only a third of its peak value, making no further western inroads from there into any part of Anatolia, including the geographically adjacent Lake Van center of the Iron Age Kingdom of Urartu. The impermeability of Anatolia to exogenous migration contrasts with our finding that the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows, both from West Asia, suggesting that the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc and that the steppe served only as a secondary staging area of Indo-European language dispersal. The demographic significance of Anatolia on a Mediterranean-wide scale is further documented by our finding that following the Roman conquest, the Anatolian population remained stable and became the geographic source for much of the ancestry of Imperial Rome itself."
    https://iias.huji.ac.il/event/david-reich-lecture
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    Indeed. Without trying to sound rude, it's time for the Reich lab to lay their cards on the table and show the rest of us why they have been so confidently placing PIE in West Asia. No matter what the result this paper will be a milestone.

    Edit: I forgot to add

    We're also probably getting answers with regards to the origin of Greek, Armenian, Phrygian, Dacian, Albanian etc. Very exciting.
    Last edited by Psynome; 06-17-2022 at 12:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psynome View Post
    Indeed. Without trying to sound rude, it's time for the Reich lab to lay their cards on the table and show the rest of us why they have been so confidently placing PIE in West Asia. No matter what the result this paper will be a milestone.

    Edit: I forgot to add

    We're also probably getting answers with regards to the origin of Greek, Armenian, Phrygian, Dacian, Albanian etc. Very exciting.
    Our comprehensive sampling shows that Anatolia received hardly any genetic input from Europe or the Eurasian steppe from the Chalcolithic to the Iron Age; this contrasts with Southeastern Europe and Armenia that were impacted by major gene flow from Yamnaya steppe pastoralists.
    We will see what "hardly any" means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    We will see what "hardly any" means.
    If pristine IE were just EHG ( Ukraine hg type) + EEF it is obvious that once they migrated to Anatolia going through rich EEF territory ( the balkans) their HG profile would have been watered down to basically zero. The lack of steppe ancestry (EHG/CHG) in this respect is meaningless in order to disprove a Pontic origin for PIE.
    Last edited by etrusco; 06-17-2022 at 01:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    If pristine IE were just EHG ( Ukraine hg type) + EEF it is obvious that once they migrated to Anatolia going through rich EEF territory ( the balkans) their HG profile would have been watered down to basically zero. The lack of steppe ancestry (EHG/CHG) in this respect is meaningless in order to disprove a Pontic origin for PIE.
    We know that R1b wasn't in Anatolia during the Neolithic from the data we have, barring one sample of V1636 I think. However, you're looking at 12-18% in modern Turks which couldn't all have come from Central Asia. In fact most of the data from Central Asian Turks of the period suggests R-Z2103 was a minor lineage, which leaves Bronze and Iron Ages to be the period of migration of R1b to Anatolia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    We will see what "hardly any" means.
    Yeah, I mean the Mycenaeans we have also got “hardly any” steppe admixture and yet they obviously got their languages from them. I’ve always been of the opinion that Anatolia didn’t get much steppe DNA because it was already part of this bustling Bronze Age civilization. Kind of like how the Mongols didn’t have a large impact on the various civilizations they conquered, simply because there wasn’t enough of them. Anatolian civilization as well, was only very narrowly Indo-European. Most of their gods were not indo european, meanwhile cultures like the Etruscans were highly Italicized despite not speaking the language.

    Also, the Iran_N DNA burst occurred in Greece as well. And yet, the Minoans weren’t speaking Indo-European like the Anatolians did. Likewise, the presence of CHG DNA on the steppe goes back to far before Indo-Anatolian is believed to have taken shape. But most importantly, like I said, Anatolia was hardly indo-Europeanized any more than it was Hatticized or Hurricized or Mesopotamicized or Semiticized
    Last edited by Billyh; 06-18-2022 at 06:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psynome View Post
    Indeed. Without trying to sound rude, it's time for the Reich lab to lay their cards on the table and show the rest of us why they have been so confidently placing PIE in West Asia. No matter what the result this paper will be a milestone.

    Edit: I forgot to add

    We're also probably getting answers with regards to the origin of Greek, Armenian, Phrygian, Dacian, Albanian etc. Very exciting.
    Agreed. If they have some kind of smoking gun confirming an origin south of the Caucasus, I will gladly change my opinion. I've always loved the idea of a West Asian origin for IE personally but the facts are more important to me than my own gratification. So far I have not seen good evidence for a southern origin for PIE. If they're leaning on the lack of steppe ancestry in Anatolia as the reason, then I'm afraid I will remain unconvinced.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Agreed. If they have some kind of smoking gun confirming an origin south of the Caucasus, I will gladly change my opinion. I've always loved the idea of a West Asian origin for IE personally but the facts are more important to me than my own gratification. So far I have not seen good evidence for a southern origin for PIE. If they're leaning on the lack of steppe ancestry in Anatolia as the reason, then I'm afraid I will remain unconvinced.
    Kind of where I sit on this. When I first started the hobby Anatolian hypothesis was my horse, but then faced with the facts, I was almost sure the Steppe theory accounted for the data better. Lets hope the data here will speak for itself. It's always a boon to change ones own worldview to the facts rather than try to fit the data to ones worldview.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Agreed. If they have some kind of smoking gun confirming an origin south of the Caucasus, I will gladly change my opinion. I've always loved the idea of a West Asian origin for IE personally but the facts are more important to me than my own gratification. So far I have not seen good evidence for a southern origin for PIE. If they're leaning on the lack of steppe ancestry in Anatolia as the reason, then I'm afraid I will remain unconvinced.
    The problem isn't their lab work but their inability to actually provide evidence for their conjecture even many years after making it. The burden of proof is even more difficult because the steppe already had West Asian genetic input long before they are suggesting PIE would have entered the steppe. If they want to use DNA to make claims about language you need everything else to corroborate as well. Archeological evidence and language contact being the biggest that come to mind.

    Language isn't that strictly tied to DNA in the first place and even if we don't look at recent colonial examples of this we can point to the Basques, Hungarians, long Sinicized minorities, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xenus View Post
    The problem isn't their lab work but their inability to actually provide evidence for their conjecture even many years after making it. The burden of proof is even more difficult because the steppe already had West Asian genetic input long before they are suggesting PIE would have entered the steppe. If they want to use DNA to make claims about language you need everything else to corroborate as well. Archeological evidence and language contact being the biggest that come to mind.

    Language isn't that strictly tied to DNA in the first place and even if we don't look at recent colonial examples of this we can point to the Basques, Hungarians, long Sinicized minorities, etc.
    Yup. Just look at Etruscans for the contrary of Anatolians. Heavily Indo-Europeanized religion and heavy steppe admixture (same as other Italics at least) and yet they didn’t adopt the language

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