Page 75 of 76 FirstFirst ... 256573747576 LastLast
Results 741 to 750 of 760

Thread: "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe"

  1. #741
    Registered Users
    Posts
    109
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Pontus
    Nationality
    Pontic Greek
    Y-DNA (P)
    EV13

    Empire of Trebizond Kurdistan
    This is the sample i am talking about.

    Target: TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res:MA2208
    Distance: 5.5355% / 0.05535499
    45.4 Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
    19.8 Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB
    16.4 Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
    12.8 Iran_Neolithic_Farmer_IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    5.6 Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Sama ra

    TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res:MA2208,0.103579,0.15436,-0.035449,-0.076228,-0.001539,-0.01506,0.021151,0.002538,-0.000818,0.010752,-0.004384,0.017684,-0.003271,0.020231,-0.008007,-0.006629,-0.014864,0.004561,0.010936,-0.008254,-0.000624,-0.002844,0.005916,-0.001687,-0.007185

  2. #742
    Registered Users
    Posts
    160
    Sex
    Location
    Northeastern U.S.
    Ethnicity
    Sub-Mediterrenean
    Nationality
    U.S.A.
    aDNA Match (1st)
    France_IA_ERS88
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    French_Provence
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    SZ27_Hungary_Langobard_1475_ybp
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U106 > Z8

    Ireland County Galway Scotland Italy 1861-1946 Austria Prussia United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Steppelor View Post
    Ugh. This discussion is really sliding.

    If EHGs spoke Uralic, which at least some of them did, the above is a moot point.

    Trying to think of someone less relevant than Ben Shapiro to reference, but yeah.
    Why would EHGs speak Uralic? I thought Uralic spread west of the Urals later than the IE expansion and is associated with Kra001-like DNA.

  3. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Billyh For This Useful Post:

     Cascio (08-06-2022),  doghead (08-06-2022),  nemо (08-07-2022),  Pribislav (08-06-2022)

  4. #743
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,244
    Sex
    Location
    UK
    Nationality
    Welsh
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-DF49
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c2e

    European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyh View Post
    Why would EHGs speak Uralic? I thought Uralic spread west of the Urals later than the IE expansion and is associated with Kra001-like DNA.
    Contact with Uralic is one of the key points of evidence for the PIE urheimat.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to jdean For This Useful Post:

     pegasus (08-06-2022)

  6. #744
    Registered Users
    Posts
    517
    Sex

    Greece
    Quote Originally Posted by Avraam Kyriakidis View Post
    This is the sample i am talking about.

    Target: TUR__low_res:MA2208
    Distance: 5.5355% / 0.05535499
    45.4 Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
    19.8 Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB
    16.4 Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
    12.8 Iran_Neolithic_Farmer_IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    5.6 Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Sama ra

    TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res:MA2208,0.103579,0.15436,-0.035449,-0.076228,-0.001539,-0.01506,0.021151,0.002538,-0.000818,0.010752,-0.004384,0.017684,-0.003271,0.020231,-0.008007,-0.006629,-0.014864,0.004561,0.010936,-0.008254,-0.000624,-0.002844,0.005916,-0.001687,-0.007185
    These samples have a small European HG related shift on the PCA of Skourtanioti et al. (?, I think) https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/imag...92-gr3_lrg.jpg

    My impression based on the PCA:

    I think Alalakh MLBA, Ikiztepe LC, Arslantepe LC, TopakHoyuk EBA, Gondurle Hoyuk EBA, TitrisHoyuk EBA, Ebla EMBA, Buyukkaya EC, Çamlıbel tarlası and Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA form a cluster (the order is random).

    Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA is actually within the Hattian speaking area.

    'Late Helladic' (='Mycenaeans'), Greece_N, 'Minoans', Tepecik-Ciftlik form another cluster. The relationship seems very real to me. Tell Kurdu may be related but with more Levantine. Mycenaeans on the PCA appear to shift towards the EHGs too, not the so called 'steppe' populations.

    Barcin, Boncuklu, 'Balkans Chalcolithic' samples (those labeled as such in the study) and some of the Balkans N samples form another cluster. Pinarbasi HG belongs there.

    These peoples may belong to 3 different ethne at least.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Kanenas For This Useful Post:

     Isidro (08-06-2022)

  8. #745
    Registered Users
    Posts
    109
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Pontus
    Nationality
    Pontic Greek
    Y-DNA (P)
    EV13

    Empire of Trebizond Kurdistan
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    These samples have a small European HG related shift on the PCA of Skourtanioti et al. (?, I think) https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/imag...92-gr3_lrg.jpg

    My impression based on the PCA:

    I think Alalakh MLBA, Ikiztepe LC, Arslantepe LC, TopakHoyuk EBA, Gondurle Hoyuk EBA, TitrisHoyuk EBA, Ebla EMBA, Buyukkaya EC, Çamlıbel tarlası and Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA form a cluster (the order is random).

    Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA is actually within the Hattian speaking area.

    'Late Helladic' (='Mycenaeans'), Greece_N, 'Minoans', Tepecik-Ciftlik form another cluster. The relationship seems very real to me. Tell Kurdu may be related but with more Levantine. Mycenaeans on the PCA appear to shift towards the EHGs too, not the so called 'steppe' populations.

    Barcin, Boncuklu, 'Balkans Chalcolithic' samples (those labeled as such in the study) and some of the Balkans N samples form another cluster. Pinarbasi HG belongs there.

    These peoples may belong to 3 different ethne at least.
    Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA samples must be Hattians.

    In general Copper Age and Bronze Age anatolians are mostly a mix of ANF, CHG, Iran N and Levant N.

    The alalakh samples are Levantines with an Anatolian shift/direction. The site must had been an Amorite hotspot of northwest Levantine background.

  9. #746
    Registered Users
    Posts
    693
    Location
    Florida Native
    Ethnicity
    Greek Peloponnese
    Nationality
    US since the 1890's
    Y-DNA (P)
    G2A2A

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    These samples have a small European HG related shift on the PCA of Skourtanioti et al. (?, I think) https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/imag...92-gr3_lrg.jpg

    My impression based on the PCA:

    I think Alalakh MLBA, Ikiztepe LC, Arslantepe LC, TopakHoyuk EBA, Gondurle Hoyuk EBA, TitrisHoyuk EBA, Ebla EMBA, Buyukkaya EC, Çamlıbel tarlası and Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA form a cluster (the order is random).

    Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA is actually within the Hattian speaking area.

    'Late Helladic' (='Mycenaeans'), Greece_N, 'Minoans', Tepecik-Ciftlik form another cluster. The relationship seems very real to me. Tell Kurdu may be related but with more Levantine. Mycenaeans on the PCA appear to shift towards the EHGs too, not the so called 'steppe' populations.

    Barcin, Boncuklu, 'Balkans Chalcolithic' samples (those labeled as such in the study) and some of the Balkans N samples form another cluster. Pinarbasi HG belongs there.

    These peoples may belong to 3 different ethne at least.
    Correct me if I’m wrong but in the Mycenean/Minoan paper they mentioned that the Myceneans had an additional Northern component but it wasn’t necessarily specified (EHG vs Steppe).
    88.0 Greek_Peloponnese + 12.0 Swiss_French Distance: 1.4582% / 0.01458192 | R2P

  10. #747
    Registered Users
    Posts
    950

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    These samples have a small European HG related shift on the PCA of Skourtanioti et al. (?, I think) https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/imag...92-gr3_lrg.jpg

    My impression based on the PCA:

    I think Alalakh MLBA, Ikiztepe LC, Arslantepe LC, TopakHoyuk EBA, Gondurle Hoyuk EBA, TitrisHoyuk EBA, Ebla EMBA, Buyukkaya EC, Çamlıbel tarlası and Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA form a cluster (the order is random).

    Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA is actually within the Hattian speaking area.

    'Late Helladic' (='Mycenaeans'), Greece_N, 'Minoans', Tepecik-Ciftlik form another cluster. The relationship seems very real to me. Tell Kurdu may be related but with more Levantine. Mycenaeans on the PCA appear to shift towards the EHGs too, not the so called 'steppe' populations.

    Barcin, Boncuklu, 'Balkans Chalcolithic' samples (those labeled as such in the study) and some of the Balkans N samples form another cluster. Pinarbasi HG belongs there.

    These peoples may belong to 3 different ethne at least.
    PCAs can be rather confusing if not used parallel with some other tools that can estimate ancestry proportions or drift.
    That being said, Lazaridis modeled the Myceaneans successfully as a two way mix between Minoans and Yamnaya.
    His other 'successful' model was a two way mix between Anatolian Farmers and Armenia BA. This model is less likely to be the case as it's anachronistic and the Anatolian Farmers in their original genetic signature most probably didn't exist by the time of the Myceaneans.

    Although I'm not taking these results at face value and something that cannot be questioned I still think the Steppe ancestry is real among the Myceaneans.

    Now, whether proto-Greek arrived from the Steppe through the Balkans or from Anatolia is a totally different question.

  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Aspar For This Useful Post:

     Isidro (08-06-2022),  parasar (08-07-2022)

  12. #748
    Registered Users
    Posts
    693
    Location
    Florida Native
    Ethnicity
    Greek Peloponnese
    Nationality
    US since the 1890's
    Y-DNA (P)
    G2A2A

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    PCAs can be rather confusing if not used parallel with some other tools that can estimate ancestry proportions or drift.
    That being said, Lazaridis modeled the Myceaneans successfully as a two way mix between Minoans and Yamnaya.
    His other 'successful' model was a two way mix between Anatolian Farmers and Armenia BA. This model is less likely to be the case as it's anachronistic and the Anatolian Farmers in their original genetic signature most probably didn't exist by the time of the Myceaneans.

    Although I'm not taking these results at face value and something that cannot be questioned I still think the Steppe ancestry is real among the Myceaneans.

    Now, whether proto-Greek arrived from the Steppe through the Balkans or from Anatolia is a totally different question.
    From what I’ve read (my chronology may be off) Neolithic Greece (which ended around the beginning of the 2nd millennium BCE) was made up of numerous farmer communities. There’s no evidence that there was even much of an EHF signature. The steppe element may have arrived in Greece during the early Helladic but this hasn’t been confirmed. There’s certainly higher Steppe in one of the Middle Helladic samples from Northern Greece but in general seems like the Steppe genetic influence moved slowly and stayed North.
    88.0 Greek_Peloponnese + 12.0 Swiss_French Distance: 1.4582% / 0.01458192 | R2P

  13. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to TonyC For This Useful Post:

     Isidro (08-06-2022),  parasar (08-06-2022)

  14. #749
    Registered Users
    Posts
    950

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyC View Post
    From what I’ve read (my chronology may be off) Neolithic Greece (which ended around the beginning of the 2nd millennium BCE) was made up of numerous farmer communities. There’s no evidence that there was even much of an EHF signature. The steppe element may have arrived in Greece during the early Helladic but this hasn’t been confirmed. There’s certainly higher Steppe in one of the Middle Helladic samples from Northern Greece but in general seems like the Steppe genetic influence moved slowly and stayed North.
    You mean the beginning of the 3rd millennium? The beginning of the 2nd millennium sounds way too late for the beginning of the BA in Greece.

    The Steppe influence certainly seems to have made its way to Greece looking at the MBA Helladic samples. There are also plenty of artifacts and customs that connect Greece to the Steppe and yes, even the Mycenaean civilization, although it does seem that the genetic input was somehow more limited among the Myceaneans.

  15. #750
    Registered Users
    Posts
    16
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyh View Post
    Why would EHGs speak Uralic? I thought Uralic spread west of the Urals later than the IE expansion and is associated with Kra001-like DNA.
    Just like WSH ancestry today peaks in modern IE speaking groups, EHG ancestry today peaks in modern Uralic speaking populations.
    Last edited by Steppelor; 08-07-2022 at 12:52 PM.

Page 75 of 76 FirstFirst ... 256573747576 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 04-19-2021, 11:58 AM
  2. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 05-25-2018, 11:02 AM
  3. "The genetic forge of Europe", by Carles Lalueza-Fox
    By razyn in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 03-18-2018, 05:52 PM
  4. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-16-2017, 05:36 PM
  5. Replies: 43
    Last Post: 01-18-2015, 02:11 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •