Page 195 of 239 FirstFirst ... 95145185193194195196197205 ... LastLast
Results 1,941 to 1,950 of 2388

Thread: "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe"

  1. #1941
    Registered Users
    Posts
    180
    Sex

    I guess you also haven't seen Ancient samples from Greece since you claim there has been a demographic change there


    Distance to: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
    0.03417883 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03682935 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03808333 Italian_Northeast
    0.03809233 Albanian
    0.03817021 Italian_Piedmont
    0.03825502 Gagauz
    0.03873748 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03979048 Italian_Veneto
    0.03986080 Swiss_Italian
    0.04023782 Bulgarian
    0.04044998 Macedonian
    0.04079064 Romanian
    0.04083018 Rumelia_East
    0.04124563 Italian_Lombardy
    0.04180854 Italian_Bergamo
    0.04200219 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.04241700 Greek_Messenia
    0.04253053 Greek_West_Taygetos
    0.04268138 Italian_Liguria
    0.04335435 Italian_Tuscany
    0.04434856 Greek_Argolis
    0.04464512 Greek_Arcadia
    0.04510095 Greek_Achaea
    0.04549666 Greek_Elis
    0.04598625 Greek_Corinthia



    Distance to: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
    0.02431119 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02471738 Italian_Tuscany
    0.02568348 Italian_Marche
    0.02571492 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02771451 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02834099 French_Corsica
    0.02861037 Albanian
    0.02861698 Italian_Umbria
    0.02912989 Greek_Messenia
    0.02922166 Italian_Liguria
    0.02997666 Greek_Arcadia
    0.03013658 Greek_Argolis
    0.03042203 Italian_Lazio
    0.03049210 Greek_Achaea
    0.03135567 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03143920 Greek_East_Taygetos
    0.03167704 Greek_Corinthia
    0.03178996 Greek_West_Taygetos
    0.03186725 Greek_Elis
    0.03201528 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03207900 Greek_Laconia
    0.03208233 Italian_Bergamo
    0.03333828 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03339197 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03381538 Swiss_Italian


    Now if we add Albanian regions to these samples

    Distance to: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
    0.03417883 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03478913 Albanian_Kosovo
    0.03504909 Albanian_Montenegro
    0.03535695 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
    0.03677831 Albanian_Tropojė-Gjakovė
    0.03682935 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03699805 Albanian_Korēė
    0.03808333 Italian_Northeast
    0.03809233 Albanian
    0.03817021 Italian_Piedmont
    0.03825502 Gagauz
    0.03859901 Albanian_Pukė
    0.03873748 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03965414 Albanian_Labėria
    0.03979048 Italian_Veneto
    0.03986080 Swiss_Italian
    0.04023782 Bulgarian
    0.04039187 Albanian_Mirditė
    0.04044998 Macedonian
    0.04079064 Romanian
    0.04083018 Rumelia_East
    0.04124563 Italian_Lombardy
    0.04128615 Albanian_Himarė
    0.04180854 Italian_Bergamo
    0.04200219 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige



    Distance to: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
    0.02431119 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02471738 Italian_Tuscany
    0.02568348 Italian_Marche
    0.02571492 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02614526 Albanian_Mirditė
    0.02654461 Albanian_Himarė
    0.02724605 Albanian_Central_Albania
    0.02726793 Albanian_Tropojė-Gjakovė
    0.02758268 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
    0.02771451 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02805000 Albanian_Labėria
    0.02834099 French_Corsica
    0.02861037 Albanian
    0.02861698 Italian_Umbria
    0.02912989 Greek_Messenia
    0.02922166 Italian_Liguria
    0.02951949 Albanian_Pukė
    0.02997666 Greek_Arcadia
    0.03013658 Greek_Argolis
    0.03018256 Albanian_Montenegro
    0.03042203 Italian_Lazio
    0.03049210 Greek_Achaea
    0.03053394 Albanian_Dibra
    0.03077043 Albanian_Kosovo
    0.03098158 Albanian_Korēė



    These type of profiles even existed back then. There is not much change. Neither is there when you add Albanian regional averages to some of these Illyrians.

    Greece, Tuscany, Central/North Italian regions is what people even get today. It depends also largely on the modern averages you use.
    Last edited by xz1333; 09-23-2022 at 04:02 PM.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to xz1333 For This Useful Post:

     Ahuwarhd (09-25-2022),  TonyC (09-23-2022)

  3. #1942
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,074
    Sex
    Location
    Central Florida
    Ethnicity
    Greek + Anglo-American
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-PF5197
    mtDNA (M)
    J1b1a

    Greece United States of America
    Logkas' similarity to modern mainland Greeks is actually a perfect cautionary tale about trumpeting any similarities that exist between ancient and medieval/modern Albania. Coincidental distances do happen due to the ever swinging pendulum of gene flow. There is no way on God's green earth that modern mainland Greeks are mostly descended of Logkas. Their similarity is coincidental.

    I will look at this stuff eventually, but I still have to finish the BA.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

  4. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to Michalis Moriopoulos For This Useful Post:

     Andrewid (09-23-2022),  Ariel90 (09-23-2022),  Chatzianastasoglou (09-23-2022),  chitosechitose (09-23-2022),  Granary (09-23-2022),  peloponnesian (09-23-2022),  Pribislav (09-24-2022),  rafc (09-23-2022),  Ruderico (09-23-2022),  Sorcelow (09-23-2022),  TonyC (09-23-2022),  whynot (10-06-2022),  XXD (09-23-2022)

  5. #1943
    Registered Users
    Posts
    742
    Location
    Florida Native
    Ethnicity
    Greek Peloponnese
    Nationality
    US since the 1890's
    Y-DNA (P)
    G2A2A

    Quote Originally Posted by xz1333 View Post
    I guess you also haven't seen Ancient samples from Greece since you claim there has been a demographic change there


    Distance to: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
    0.03417883 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03682935 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03808333 Italian_Northeast
    0.03809233 Albanian
    0.03817021 Italian_Piedmont
    0.03825502 Gagauz
    0.03873748 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03979048 Italian_Veneto
    0.03986080 Swiss_Italian
    0.04023782 Bulgarian
    0.04044998 Macedonian
    0.04079064 Romanian
    0.04083018 Rumelia_East
    0.04124563 Italian_Lombardy
    0.04180854 Italian_Bergamo
    0.04200219 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.04241700 Greek_Messenia
    0.04253053 Greek_West_Taygetos
    0.04268138 Italian_Liguria
    0.04335435 Italian_Tuscany
    0.04434856 Greek_Argolis
    0.04464512 Greek_Arcadia
    0.04510095 Greek_Achaea
    0.04549666 Greek_Elis
    0.04598625 Greek_Corinthia



    Distance to: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
    0.02431119 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02471738 Italian_Tuscany
    0.02568348 Italian_Marche
    0.02571492 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02771451 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02834099 French_Corsica
    0.02861037 Albanian
    0.02861698 Italian_Umbria
    0.02912989 Greek_Messenia
    0.02922166 Italian_Liguria
    0.02997666 Greek_Arcadia
    0.03013658 Greek_Argolis
    0.03042203 Italian_Lazio
    0.03049210 Greek_Achaea
    0.03135567 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03143920 Greek_East_Taygetos
    0.03167704 Greek_Corinthia
    0.03178996 Greek_West_Taygetos
    0.03186725 Greek_Elis
    0.03201528 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03207900 Greek_Laconia
    0.03208233 Italian_Bergamo
    0.03333828 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03339197 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03381538 Swiss_Italian


    Now if we add Albanian regions to these samples

    Distance to: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
    0.03417883 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03478913 Albanian_Kosovo
    0.03504909 Albanian_Montenegro
    0.03535695 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
    0.03677831 Albanian_Tropojė-Gjakovė
    0.03682935 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03699805 Albanian_Korēė
    0.03808333 Italian_Northeast
    0.03809233 Albanian
    0.03817021 Italian_Piedmont
    0.03825502 Gagauz
    0.03859901 Albanian_Pukė
    0.03873748 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03965414 Albanian_Labėria
    0.03979048 Italian_Veneto
    0.03986080 Swiss_Italian
    0.04023782 Bulgarian
    0.04039187 Albanian_Mirditė
    0.04044998 Macedonian
    0.04079064 Romanian
    0.04083018 Rumelia_East
    0.04124563 Italian_Lombardy
    0.04128615 Albanian_Himarė
    0.04180854 Italian_Bergamo
    0.04200219 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige



    Distance to: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
    0.02431119 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02471738 Italian_Tuscany
    0.02568348 Italian_Marche
    0.02571492 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02614526 Albanian_Mirditė
    0.02654461 Albanian_Himarė
    0.02724605 Albanian_Central_Albania
    0.02726793 Albanian_Tropojė-Gjakovė
    0.02758268 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
    0.02771451 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02805000 Albanian_Labėria
    0.02834099 French_Corsica
    0.02861037 Albanian
    0.02861698 Italian_Umbria
    0.02912989 Greek_Messenia
    0.02922166 Italian_Liguria
    0.02951949 Albanian_Pukė
    0.02997666 Greek_Arcadia
    0.03013658 Greek_Argolis
    0.03018256 Albanian_Montenegro
    0.03042203 Italian_Lazio
    0.03049210 Greek_Achaea
    0.03053394 Albanian_Dibra
    0.03077043 Albanian_Kosovo
    0.03098158 Albanian_Korēė



    These type of profiles even existed back then. There is not much change. Neither is there when you add Albanian regional averages to some of these Illyrians.

    Greece, Tuscany, Central/North Italian regions is what people even get today. It depends also largely on the modern averages you use.

    That Logkas 2 sample is probably my closest genetic match (to an ancient sample) that I've come across but it's because of the compositional similarity. I've contested that modern Greeks (especially from the mainland are a transient lot with a lot of North to South movement over the years; Epirus/Thessaly to the Peloponnese in particular. I still don't believe that it's necessarily because of Slavic admixture that modern Greeks from the mainland have higher Steppe (or whatever you want to call it) but because those who gradually moved South into the Peloponnese or even Central Greece already had higher Balkan like IE making the entire peninsula compositionally similar. If you notice there are minor genetic differences between Central Macedonian Greeks and Greeks from say Argolis or Messinia.
    BTW that Logkas 4 has really high Steppe and would probably be much closer to Southern Slavs vs. Greeks or Albanians.
    Last edited by TonyC; 09-23-2022 at 04:16 PM.
    88.0 Greek_Peloponnese + 12.0 Swiss_French Distance: 1.4582% / 0.01458192 | R2P

  6. #1944
    Registered Users
    Posts
    742
    Location
    Florida Native
    Ethnicity
    Greek Peloponnese
    Nationality
    US since the 1890's
    Y-DNA (P)
    G2A2A

    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Logkas' similarity to modern mainland Greeks is actually a perfect cautionary tale about trumpeting any similarities that exist between ancient and medieval/modern Albania. Coincidental distances do happen due to the ever swinging pendulum of gene flow. There is no way on God's green earth that modern mainland Greeks are mostly descended of Logkas. Their similarity is coincidental.

    I will look at this stuff eventually, but I still have to finish the BA.
    That Logkas 2 sample (as I've mentioned before) is super close to mainland Greeks most likely due to the similarity in ancestral components. I don't think it's a coincidence though particularly if this sample represents later Northern Greek archaic populations who may have moved South in later years. Somebody brought the higher Paleo-Balkan Steppe to Southern Greece and I don't necessarily believe it was just those early medieval Slavic settlers.
    88.0 Greek_Peloponnese + 12.0 Swiss_French Distance: 1.4582% / 0.01458192 | R2P

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to TonyC For This Useful Post:

     Bruzmi (09-23-2022)

  8. #1945
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,092
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyC View Post
    That Logkas 2 sample is probably my closest genetic match (to an ancient sample) that I've come across but it's because of the compositional similarity. I've contested that modern Greeks (especially from the mainland are a transient lot with a lot of North to South movement over the years; Epirus/Thessaly to the Peloponnese in particular. I still don't believe that it's necessarily because of Slavic admixture that modern Greeks from the mainland have higher Steppe (or whatever you want to call it) but because those who gradually moved South into the Peloponnese or even Central Greece already had higher Balkan like IE making the entire peninsula compositionally similar. If you notice there are minor genetic differences between Central Macedonian Greeks and Greeks from say Argolis or Messinia.
    It's not a dichotomy, Slavs mixed with Balkan people and migrated southwards, Greeks assimilated Balkan ancestry(or Balkan people became Greek speakers during the Hellenistic and Roman period) and then were assimilated by or assimilated Slavs they were in contact with and migrated around, Aromanians and Albanians with lower Slavic ancestry migrated southwards.

    Let's put it this way, given how much Slavic Y-DNA Greece and Albania has(regardless of what the exact figure is) wouldn't you say it's fair to say the autosomal Slavic input matches that %(not half because we know Slavic migrations weren't particularly gender-biased)?

  9. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Granary For This Useful Post:

     epirus1000 (09-24-2022),  TonyC (09-23-2022),  XXD (09-23-2022)

  10. #1946
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,138
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Logkas' similarity to modern mainland Greeks is actually a perfect cautionary tale about trumpeting any similarities that exist between ancient and medieval/modern Albania. Coincidental distances do happen due to the ever swinging pendulum of gene flow. There is no way on God's green earth that modern mainland Greeks are mostly descended of Logkas. Their similarity is coincidental.

    I will look at this stuff eventually, but I still have to finish the BA.
    Modern mainland Greeks can't descend from Logkas not just because this would require many population events which haven't been recorded historically but also because the Logkas samples aren't Proto-Greek.

    The Logkas samples belong to the Armenochori group which is the southernmost extension of west-central Balkan Late EBA/MBA groups of the post-Vucedol-Kostolac era.



    This area was included in the Proto-Albanian-Messapic area in one of the presentations of the The Secondary Homelands of the Indo-European Languages (IG-AT2022). I don't think that Armenochori can be Proto-Albanian but one of the many related post-Vucedol formations, which briefly extended up to southern Macedonia and then moved back to more northern locations. In any case, I don't think that anyone would be able to prove that Proto-Albanians = Armenochori group specifically but not one of the many similar groups to the north of Armenochori.

    The Proto-Greek-Phrygian area in several presentations was defined as EBA Ezero:

    Last edited by Bruzmi; 09-23-2022 at 04:46 PM.

  11. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Bruzmi For This Useful Post:

     epirus1000 (09-24-2022),  mha (09-24-2022),  Michalis Moriopoulos (09-23-2022),  pegasus (09-23-2022),  xz1333 (09-27-2022)

  12. #1947
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,138
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyC View Post
    That Logkas 2 sample (as I've mentioned before) is super close to mainland Greeks most likely due to the similarity in ancestral components. I don't think it's a coincidence though particularly if this sample represents later Northern Greek archaic populations who may have moved South in later years. Somebody brought the higher Paleo-Balkan Steppe to Southern Greece and I don't necessarily believe it was just those early medieval Slavic settlers.
    Early medieval Slavic settlers couldn't have brought to Greece any low WHG or high ANF profiles. Most medieval south Slavic profiles we have found so far are much more Slavic than modern south Slavs. The Slavs which settled in Albanian and Greek regions most likely looked like the Slavic individual from Byzantine Anatolia:

    Target: TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3:I10430
    Distance: 6.2195% / 0.06219493
    47.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    39.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    13.8 WHG

    A slightly mixed Slav from Byzantine Dalmatia:

    Target: HRV_Trogir_Byz_o:I15742
    Distance: 6.6459% / 0.06645916
    44.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    40.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    11.2 WHG
    4.4 Levant_PPNB

    High ANF/low WHG/~1/3 Yamnaya profiles without significant other admixtures were preserved at the very least in the Albanian regions and then at some point began to re-expand outwards. Maybe they were preserved in other regions too, but we don't have any samples yet for other populations like northern Greeks from Macedonia.

    The main point I need to stress is that these profiles can only be maintained via high endogamy. These two modern individuals from Dibra (official G25 coords):

    Target: Dibra2
    Distance: 3.0627% / 0.03062717
    64.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    1.2 WHG
    0.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

    Target: Dibra1
    Distance: 2.8707% / 0.02870661
    63.0 TUR_Barcin_N
    32.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    2.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.8 WHG
    0.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728

    couldn't have had such high ANF profiles without endogamy. Add any substantial Slavic or Anatolian exogamy and they simply can't exist any longer because they represent - with very few other components - very high ANF values, which neither Byzantine Anatolians nor Slavs had.

    EDIT:

    I don't support any Fallmerayer-like notion about heavy Slavic admixture in any of the two non-Slavic people of the Balkans. Regional profiles like the one in Corinth:

    Target: Greek_Corinthia
    Distance: 2.2338% / 0.02233795
    52.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    31.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    6.2 Levant_PPNB
    6.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    2.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.0 WHG

    can very easily be explained via the admixture of a Deep Mani-like and a Mirdita/Dibra-like profile without any third substantial Slavic component. This doesn't mean that Slavic admixture doesn't exist at all but it's limited and exists in specific areas for specific historical and geographical reasons. Overall, from all medieval-to-modern samples that we have what we can see is that Slavic admixture began to decline after 1100 CE and this decline has only increased in the past 3 centuries, which is an absolutely normal and expected series of events which has occurred in all regions where non-local admixture has been added as a single event. Without constant events, everything returns to its equilibrium.
    Last edited by Bruzmi; 09-23-2022 at 05:23 PM.

  13. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Bruzmi For This Useful Post:

     epirus1000 (09-24-2022),  olive picker (09-24-2022),  TonyC (09-23-2022)

  14. #1948
    Registered Users
    Posts
    447
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Pontus
    Nationality
    Pontic Greek
    aDNA Match (1st)
    0.02936008 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1551
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    0.03887734 TUR_SE_Mardin_PostMdv:I4540
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    0.03897755 TUR_SE_Gaziantep_Byz:I14648
    Y-DNA (P)
    G-Y316412
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-Y140828

    Empire of Trebizond Byzantine Empire
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Early medieval Slavic settlers couldn't have brought to Greece any low WHG or high ANF profiles. Most medieval south Slavic profiles we have found so far are much more Slavic than modern south Slavs. The Slavs which settled in Albanian and Greek regions most likely looked like the Slavic individual from Byzantine Anatolia:

    Target: TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3:I10430
    Distance: 6.2195% / 0.06219493
    47.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    39.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    13.8 WHG

    A slightly mixed Slav from Byzantine Dalmatia:

    Target: HRV_Trogir_Byz_o:I15742
    Distance: 6.6459% / 0.06645916
    44.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    40.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    11.2 WHG
    4.4 Levant_PPNB

    High ANF/low WHG/~1/3 Yamnaya profiles without significant other admixtures were preserved at the very least in the Albanian regions and then at some point began to re-expand outwards. Maybe they were preserved in other regions too, but we don't have any samples yet for other populations like northern Greeks from Macedonia.

    The main point I need to stress is that these profiles can only be maintained via high endogamy. These two modern individuals from Dibra (official G25 coords):

    Target: Dibra2
    Distance: 3.0627% / 0.03062717
    64.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    1.2 WHG
    0.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

    Target: Dibra1
    Distance: 2.8707% / 0.02870661
    63.0 TUR_Barcin_N
    32.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    2.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.8 WHG
    0.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728

    couldn't have had such high ANF profiles without endogamy. Add any substantial Slavic or Anatolian exogamy and they simply can't exist any longer because they represent - with very few other components - very high ANF values, which neither Byzantine Anatolians nor Slavs had.

    EDIT:

    I don't support any Fallmerayer-like notion about heavy Slavic admixture in any of the two non-Slavic people of the Balkans. Regional profiles like the one in Corinth:

    Target: Greek_Corinthia
    Distance: 2.2338% / 0.02233795
    52.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    31.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    6.2 Levant_PPNB
    6.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    2.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.0 WHG

    can very easily be explained via the admixture of a Deep Mani-like and a Mirdita/Dibra-like profile without any third substantial Slavic component. This doesn't mean that Slavic admixture doesn't exist at all but it's limited and exists in specific areas for specific historical and geographical reasons. Overall, from all medieval-to-modern samples that we have what we can see is that Slavic admixture began to decline after 1100 CE and this decline has only increased in the past 3 centuries, which is an absolutely normal and expected series of events which has occurred in all regions where non-local admixture has been added as a single event. Without constant events, everything returns to its equilibrium.
    Who are these samples from medieval South Slavs who are more Slavic than the current ones?With exception Southern Serbs(who are indeed more southern shifted for some reason) the rest of Yugoslavs are mostly Slavic in their autosomal.Sclaveni would had been between Croats/Slovenes and Bosniak/Serbs in autosomal DNA.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Avraam Kyriakidis For This Useful Post:

     XXD (09-23-2022)

  16. #1949
    Registered Users
    Posts
    180
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyC View Post
    That Logkas 2 sample is probably my closest genetic match (to an ancient sample) that I've come across but it's because of the compositional similarity. I've contested that modern Greeks (especially from the mainland are a transient lot with a lot of North to South movement over the years; Epirus/Thessaly to the Peloponnese in particular. I still don't believe that it's necessarily because of Slavic admixture that modern Greeks from the mainland have higher Steppe (or whatever you want to call it) but because those who gradually moved South into the Peloponnese or even Central Greece already had higher Balkan like IE making the entire peninsula compositionally similar. If you notice there are minor genetic differences between Central Macedonian Greeks and Greeks from say Argolis or Messinia.
    BTW that Logkas 4 has really high Steppe and would probably be much closer to Southern Slavs vs. Greeks or Albanians.
    I don't know I haven't studied much Greek origin or Greece. My main focus has mostly been on Albanians, I just noticed these samples when running them. You are right about Logkas 4 possibly but possibly like some North-Albanians, North Italians, Bulgarians,Macedonians. Did not really say Greeks descendant from Logkas. Just arguing that such profile could of possibly still existed, for example when we look also at sample found in North Macedonia without adding Albanian regions since in many cases it gets those first


    Distance to: MKD_Anc:I10385
    0.03102428 Italian_Lombardy
    0.03106331 Italian_Piedmont
    0.03257604 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03430976 Italian_Bergamo
    0.03549007 Italian_Veneto
    0.03595775 Italian_Tuscany
    0.03600791 Italian_Liguria
    0.03727804 Swiss_Italian
    0.03776125 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03849047 Italian_Northeast
    0.03858952 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03989705 Italian_Marche
    0.04017362 Albanian
    0.04160616 Greek_Central_Macedonia

    0.04163438 Italian_Umbria
    0.04205643 Greek_Messenia
    0.04253944 Greek_West_Taygetos
    0.04331460 Rumelia_East
    0.04362611 Greek_Argolis
    0.04366178 French_Corsica
    0.04376527 French_Provence
    0.04400134 Gagauz
    0.04416433 Greek_Arcadia
    0.04536014 Greek_Achaea
    0.04583092 Greek_Elis


    Anyway, I have looked at many ancient samples from the Balkans and to me the change definitely does not seem that ''huge'', it could also be a bottle neck effect as the result of barbarian incursions, that's why Albanians possibly share so many common ancestors within the last 1500 years. Many of these calculators also seem faulty to me, this is why I think studying components and PCA maps where these samples plot, Y-DNA is more important than what exact populations these calculators give, they give more or less the same populations but in different row , distances etc if you understand what I mean. Many of these calculators are faulty, people think they can tell you how much Illyrian or Greek ancestry or Slavic ancestry you have yet they add a bunch of genetically related populations into the calculator. How can a calculator tell you anything about IBD sharing or where all your ancestors came from. Seems to be mostly useful to see how much Neolithic you have vs Steppe and HG.

    On G25 I get Greece Thessaly, Greek Macedonia and then North Italian regions as first populations,

    I would also argue, lets wait for more samples.
    Last edited by xz1333; 09-23-2022 at 05:44 PM.

  17. #1950
    Registered Users
    Posts
    447
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Pontus
    Nationality
    Pontic Greek
    aDNA Match (1st)
    0.02936008 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1551
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    0.03887734 TUR_SE_Mardin_PostMdv:I4540
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    0.03897755 TUR_SE_Gaziantep_Byz:I14648
    Y-DNA (P)
    G-Y316412
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-Y140828

    Empire of Trebizond Byzantine Empire
    Quote Originally Posted by xz1333 View Post
    I guess you also haven't seen Ancient samples from Greece since you claim there has been a demographic change there


    Distance to: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
    0.03417883 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03682935 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03808333 Italian_Northeast
    0.03809233 Albanian
    0.03817021 Italian_Piedmont
    0.03825502 Gagauz
    0.03873748 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03979048 Italian_Veneto
    0.03986080 Swiss_Italian
    0.04023782 Bulgarian
    0.04044998 Macedonian
    0.04079064 Romanian
    0.04083018 Rumelia_East
    0.04124563 Italian_Lombardy
    0.04180854 Italian_Bergamo
    0.04200219 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.04241700 Greek_Messenia
    0.04253053 Greek_West_Taygetos
    0.04268138 Italian_Liguria
    0.04335435 Italian_Tuscany
    0.04434856 Greek_Argolis
    0.04464512 Greek_Arcadia
    0.04510095 Greek_Achaea
    0.04549666 Greek_Elis
    0.04598625 Greek_Corinthia



    Distance to: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
    0.02431119 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02471738 Italian_Tuscany
    0.02568348 Italian_Marche
    0.02571492 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02771451 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02834099 French_Corsica
    0.02861037 Albanian
    0.02861698 Italian_Umbria
    0.02912989 Greek_Messenia
    0.02922166 Italian_Liguria
    0.02997666 Greek_Arcadia
    0.03013658 Greek_Argolis
    0.03042203 Italian_Lazio
    0.03049210 Greek_Achaea
    0.03135567 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03143920 Greek_East_Taygetos
    0.03167704 Greek_Corinthia
    0.03178996 Greek_West_Taygetos
    0.03186725 Greek_Elis
    0.03201528 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03207900 Greek_Laconia
    0.03208233 Italian_Bergamo
    0.03333828 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03339197 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03381538 Swiss_Italian


    Now if we add Albanian regions to these samples

    Distance to: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
    0.03417883 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03478913 Albanian_Kosovo
    0.03504909 Albanian_Montenegro
    0.03535695 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
    0.03677831 Albanian_Tropojė-Gjakovė
    0.03682935 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03699805 Albanian_Korēė
    0.03808333 Italian_Northeast
    0.03809233 Albanian
    0.03817021 Italian_Piedmont
    0.03825502 Gagauz
    0.03859901 Albanian_Pukė
    0.03873748 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03965414 Albanian_Labėria
    0.03979048 Italian_Veneto
    0.03986080 Swiss_Italian
    0.04023782 Bulgarian
    0.04039187 Albanian_Mirditė
    0.04044998 Macedonian
    0.04079064 Romanian
    0.04083018 Rumelia_East
    0.04124563 Italian_Lombardy
    0.04128615 Albanian_Himarė
    0.04180854 Italian_Bergamo
    0.04200219 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige



    Distance to: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
    0.02431119 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02471738 Italian_Tuscany
    0.02568348 Italian_Marche
    0.02571492 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02614526 Albanian_Mirditė
    0.02654461 Albanian_Himarė
    0.02724605 Albanian_Central_Albania
    0.02726793 Albanian_Tropojė-Gjakovė
    0.02758268 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
    0.02771451 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02805000 Albanian_Labėria
    0.02834099 French_Corsica
    0.02861037 Albanian
    0.02861698 Italian_Umbria
    0.02912989 Greek_Messenia
    0.02922166 Italian_Liguria
    0.02951949 Albanian_Pukė
    0.02997666 Greek_Arcadia
    0.03013658 Greek_Argolis
    0.03018256 Albanian_Montenegro
    0.03042203 Italian_Lazio
    0.03049210 Greek_Achaea
    0.03053394 Albanian_Dibra
    0.03077043 Albanian_Kosovo
    0.03098158 Albanian_Korēė



    These type of profiles even existed back then. There is not much change. Neither is there when you add Albanian regional averages to some of these Illyrians.

    Greece, Tuscany, Central/North Italian regions is what people even get today. It depends also largely on the modern averages you use.
    I was one of the first members in various anthroforas that supported the Slavic admixture among mainland Greeks while many of the Greek users were seeing Dorians,Celts and blonde aryans.So,you speaking to the wrong person.What exists for Albanians exists for mainland Greeks as well.I have modeled both populations thousands of times and they both require balto-slavic related drift to get modeled properly.Btw,i dont understand why you insist so much about the Slavic input and not about the west asian input among your people.My post to you above explains clearly the southern shift of modern Albanians in comparison with their forefathers who def lacked anything west asian/anatolian.

  18. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Avraam Kyriakidis For This Useful Post:

     23abc (09-23-2022),  Greekscholar (09-23-2022),  XXD (09-23-2022)

Page 195 of 239 FirstFirst ... 95145185193194195196197205 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 04-19-2021, 11:58 AM
  2. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 05-25-2018, 11:02 AM
  3. "The genetic forge of Europe", by Carles Lalueza-Fox
    By razyn in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 03-18-2018, 05:52 PM
  4. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-16-2017, 05:36 PM
  5. Replies: 43
    Last Post: 01-18-2015, 02:11 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •