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Thread: "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe"

  1. #2021
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    I found this source:

    https://library.oapen.org/bitstream/...41/1003920.pdf

    That says that about 24-27% of all modern villages in Albania have Slavic etymology(not sure if full or partial, probably the latter), using early modern names the Slavic portion reaches 35%.

    Certainly the historical and linguistic evidence is perfectly in line with a model that gives 20% or so Slavic ancestry in Albanians.
    Toponyms cannot be used as a sign of Slavic ancestry, a lot of those toponyms are Bulgarian in origin during Bulgarian Empire, Bulgarians and Slavs settled Albania, somewhere indeed assimilated others migrated somewhere else . Bulgarians were already quite native Balkan shifted when they invaded Albania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    Why do people feel the need to create strawman? Nobody said anything like that, when people talk about Slavic or Anatolian ancestry in modern or medieval Albanians it says absolutely 0 about where pre-medieval Albanians come from.
    Yes he did, he claims there was a migration of Albanians into Albania based on absolutely no evidence. I have seen people use the same arguments, that some change supposedly means proto-Albanian could of not been Illyrian. Apparently you need to be 100% identical .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    I found this source:

    https://library.oapen.org/bitstream/...41/1003920.pdf

    That says that about 24-27% of all modern villages in Albania have Slavic etymology(not sure if full or partial, probably the latter), using early modern names the Slavic portion reaches 35%.

    Certainly the historical and linguistic evidence is perfectly in line with a model that gives 20% or so Slavic ancestry in Albanians.
    The Balkans are a very complex region which can't be analyzed via simplistic generalizations. You're abstracting and equating things which have 0 linear relation to each other.

    One of the areas which have such toponyms is Labëria, one of the areas with the lowest Migration Period admixture and the lowest Y-DNA lineages which have a late antiquity Balto-Slavic background (2% I-Y3120, 3.4% R-L1029).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karagjoz View Post
    It would help if you define what "middle eastern y dna" is. I explained to you some history of south europe and why it may look like there is some middle eastern y dna but it is more complex than that, some of this ancestry has been in south europe since the bronze age

    This probably makes up about half of albanian j1 -
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC12816/

    From this paper in ancient macedonia 2 j2a were found between 700-600bc and a j1-by94 from 300bc. Upstream of this you have the second biggest frequency of j1 in albanians -
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z18463/

    Again from this paper another j2a line was found in 4000bc romania -
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y13128/
    "middle eastern y dna" is any y-dna lineage(yes that can include J2 subclades) with the appropriate TMRCA and that have their highest diversity in the Middle East but that saw some of their lineages end up Albania or other countries.

    Just like you can have pre-Slavic I2 lineages in the Balkans and Still have I2a-Din be of clear Slavic origin.

  5. #2025
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    Quote Originally Posted by xz1333 View Post
    Yes he did, he claims there was a migration of Albanians into Albania based on absolutely no evidence. I have seen people use the same arguments, that some change supposedly means proto-Albanian could of not been Illyrian. Apparently you need to be 100% identical .
    He was likely talking about the coast given what I said, I don't think it's controversial to claim that proto-Albanians likely lived inland and that the coast was either Latin or Greek speaking until some point in the early or high middle ages when Albanians started appearing in Byzantine sources and when they eventually assimilated and became majority on the coast and elsewhere where they weren't yet majority.

    Quote Originally Posted by xz1333 View Post
    Toponyms cannot be used as a sign of Slavic ancestry, a lot of those toponyms are Bulgarian in origin during Bulgarian Empire, Bulgarians and Slavs settled Albania, somewhere indeed assimilated others migrated somewhere else . Bulgarians were already quite native Balkan shifted when they invaded Albania.
    None of the argument you brought forward actually contradict the idea that toponyms provide a good reason to assume Albanians have substantial Slavic ancestry, I never made any direct connection between the % of toponyms with the % of Slavic ancestry, only that the 2 figures don't really contradict each other.

    If we lived in a world where Albanian had very little Slavic linguistic influence and Albania had virtually no Slavic toponyms you could argue this would make the argument for substantial Slavic ancestry weaker, but that's not the world we live in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    The Balkans are a very complex region which can't be analyzed via simplistic generalizations. You're abstracting and equating things which have 0 linear relation to each other.

    One of the areas which have such toponyms is Labëria, one of the areas with the lowest Migration Period admixture and the lowest Y-DNA lineages which have a late antiquity Balto-Slavic background (2% I-Y3120, 3.4% R-L1029).
    If you want to show it having 0 correlation you should maybe do a better job than just pointing out 1 data point.

    In any case either Albanians had tons of contact with Slavs somewhere else, which most likely involved some intermixing, and then migrated to these specific regions in Albania and used Slavic names or Slavs came there and used their language to name things and then were assimilated by Albanians, either way there is some connection between ancestry and etymology, especially given we are talking about hundreds of villages.

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  7. #2026
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karagjoz View Post
    It would help if you define what "middle eastern y dna" is. I explained to you some history of south europe and why it may look like there is some middle eastern y dna but it is more complex than that, some of this ancestry has been in south europe since the bronze age

    This probably makes up about half of albanian j1 -
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC12816/
    The Albanian cluster has a TMRCA of 1550 ybp and its sibling branch has an older TMRCA and a clearly Eastern Mediterranean distribution. It's worth pointing out that not all Levantine, North African and Middle Eastern peoples have equal access to Y DNA testing, just because you see a lot of Saudi and Yemeni flags on YFull it doesn't mean that the sampling is balanced. So the absence of modern Levantine testers from a branch isn't proof that it doesn't exist there or didn't exist in the past.

    Anyway, I don't understand this logic of trying to prove that every single Y lineage that appears in a country is indigenous. Pointing out that a lineage might have a Hellenistic or Roman-era Near Eastern origin doesn't make a modern individual who belongs to it any less Albanian, Greek or Italian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karagjoz View Post
    From this paper in ancient macedonia 2 j2a were found between 700-600bc and a j1-by94 from 300bc. Upstream of this you have the second biggest frequency of j1 in albanians -
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z18463/

    Again from this paper another j2a line was found in 4000bc romania -
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y13128/
    The thing is, even though a lot of the earliest European J2a is in the J-Y13128 branch, we don't see it much in modern Europeans. Of course there were additional Chalcolithic and BA J2a entries into Europe but we need to treat each branch in its own merit.

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  9. #2027
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    Quote Originally Posted by xz1333 View Post
    Toponyms cannot be used as a sign of Slavic ancestry, a lot of those toponyms are Bulgarian in origin during Bulgarian Empire, Bulgarians and Slavs settled Albania, somewhere indeed assimilated others migrated somewhere else . Bulgarians were already quite native Balkan shifted when they invaded Albania.
    Most slavic ancestry in albanians is very early (early medieval) and predates the bulgarian/serbian empires

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    If you want to show it having 0 correlation you should maybe do a better job than just pointing out 1 data point.
    All data points show the same thing but I'm not going to write a short history for every micro-region of the Balkans.

    You have to do extensive reading about such subjects and only then enter a discussion about them. You can't just reply with broad generalizations and abstractions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    All data points show the same thing but I'm not going to write a short history for every micro-region of the Balkans.

    You have to do extensive reading about such subjects and only then enter a discussion about them. You can't just reply with broad generalizations and abstractions.
    Whatever you say.

  13. #2030
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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    The Albanian cluster has a TMRCA of 1550 ybp and its sibling branch has an older TMRCA and a clearly Eastern Mediterranean distribution. It's worth pointing out that not all Levantine, North African and Middle Eastern peoples have equal access to Y DNA testing, just because you see a lot of Saudi and Yemeni flags on YFull it doesn't mean that the sampling is balanced. So the absence of modern Levantine testers from a branch isn't proof that it doesn't exist there or didn't exist in the past.

    Anyway, I don't understand this logic of trying to prove that every single Y lineage that appears in a country is indigenous. Pointing out that a lineage might have a Hellenistic or Roman-era Near Eastern origin doesn't make a modern individual who belongs to it any less Albanian, Greek or Italian.



    The thing is, even though a lot of the earliest European J2a is in the J-Y13128 branch, we don't see it much in modern Europeans. Of course there were additional Chalcolithic and BA J2a entries into Europe but we need to treat each branch in its own merit.
    You will need to ask granary about the logic as he was asking these questions. I was pointing out that most J lines in albanians have nothing to do with middle east

    If you go further upstream there are a few albanians under this -
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y7010/

    As for tests from middle east on yfull, many of them have tested such as saudis like you said, but also lebanese have done plenty of tests and turks are the most tested people on yfull

    South europeans are not entirely the same as north europeans, you should know this already being greek. Mycenaeans carried j2a lines, v13 is huge in south europe, r1b z2103 as well and there is more EEF ancestry. These are all far less frequent in other parts of europe
    Last edited by Karagjoz; 09-24-2022 at 11:35 PM.

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