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Thread: "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe"

  1. #2241
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    The OstroGoths ( Eastern Goths ) ...............different from the VisiGoths ( Western Goths or as some say purer Goths )

    OstroGoths moved from the baltic sea to the black sea circa 150BC .............they mixed with Sarmatians and stayed there until circa 350AD ...........500years, clearly plenty of time to mix with locals...............went to invade the balkans and conquer the Romans in Italy .............capital became Ravenna in Italy and they lasted less than 100years being conquered by the invading Lombards ...................clearly it would be a stretch to make use of any Gothic lineage.

    VisiGoths ended up in Iberia


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+, SK1480+, Y79536+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna

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  3. #2242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentica277282 View Post
    Distance to: Sardinian
    0.02424694 ITA_Sardinia_Nuragic:I10365
    0.02659154 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR104
    0.02779842 ITA_Sardinia_EMA:COR002
    0.02793933 ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3123
    0.02926184 ITA_Sardinia_Punic:ORC002
    0.02950080 ITA_Sardinia_EMA:COR001
    0.03113610 ITA_Olmo_di_Nogara_MBA:S18132
    0.03156175 ITA_LaSassa_CA:LSC005A1_013
    0.03283209 HUN_Baden_LCA:I2753
    0.03284276 POL_BKG_N:N36
    0.03385036 ITA_Sicily_MN:I4065
    0.03394494 ITA_Gattolino_CA:GLR001A1
    0.03398560 BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I0706
    0.03409549 ITA_Sardinia_Nuragic_contam:SUA001
    0.03443116 ITA_Sicily_EN:UZZ034
    0.03475308 Iberia_N:TOR.8
    0.03527346 HUN_Baden_LCA:I2370
    0.03580118 CHE_LN:MX204
    0.03598467 CHE_FN:SX21
    0.03607587 FRA_MN_OBN:OBN007.A0101
    0.03622940 CHE_LN:Aesch18
    0.03642006 FRA_MN_OBN:OBN004.A0101
    0.03700426 CZE_EE:I7192
    0.03711073 ITA_Monte_San_Biagio_CA:RMPR1014
    0.03718019 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA:RMPR4

    Distance to: Sardinian
    0.06465896 French_Corsica:CorsicaS10208
    0.07128343 French_Corsica:Corsica29708
    0.07258214 French_Corsica:CorsicaS29908
    0.07296088 French_Corsica:corsica1308
    0.07333859 French_Corsica:Corsica19508
    0.07379616 French_Corsica:Corsica03708
    0.07421790 Spanish_Burgos:2841
    0.07446667 French_Corsica:CorsicaS03308
    0.07622489 Spanish_La_Rioja:La_Rioja1
    0.07703522 Spanish_Cantabria:2133
    0.07770966 French_Bigorre:3073
    0.07813644 French_Corsica:corsica29008
    0.07818557 Spanish_Murcia:HG01699
    0.07880965 French_Corsica:Corsica14708
    0.07904532 Spanish_Alacant:SLA017
    0.07931064 French_Corsica:Corsica24508
    0.08000542 Italian_Lombardy:BGD301
    0.08032037 Spanish_La_Rioja:1467
    0.08051568 French_Corsica:CorsicaS13808
    0.08070671 French_Corsica:CorsicaS04208
    0.08073532 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha:HG01504
    0.08099608 Spanish_Andalucia:HG01623
    0.08118860 French_Corsica:CorsicaS00708
    0.08139654 Spanish_La_Rioja:1349

    It’s interesting to see how far removed Sardinians are from modern Europeans

    For the record Nuragic L10365 is the outlier from Fernandes' paper that has some minor Steppe or Iran N admixture.

    -qpAdmmodeling of the ancestry of the Sardinia_Nuragic_BA10365 outlier with respect to sources potentially more closely related in space and time does infer some ancestry in this individual from an eastern source (either carrying Steppe ancestry or Iranian-related ancestry)-
    Last edited by Myrsil; 12-01-2022 at 03:26 PM.

  4. #2243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    MEDIEVAL ROMANIA

    Artist's depiction of Pechenegs.

    Last time I mentioned Romania, I bemoaned its dearth of historical genomes. Sorry to say that doesn't get better here-- Southern Arc only has a single Romania medieval sample fit for the G25.

    But what a singleton he is-- this guy looks like he came right out of the Asian steppe! He was buried in a site 30 miles north of Bucharest, belongs to haplogroup G-Y12277, and is nearly half East Asian. He plots closest to the Xianbei-Hun average from Berel, with several other Siberian or Central Asian averages in tow. He is rc-dated to 991-1025 calCE. There's a good chance he is a Bulgar, but could also be some kind of Oghuz Turk (think Pechenegs, Cumans, Uzes, etc.); the Oghuz intruded upon Bulgar territory regularly. I label him "Turkic Profile."

    I17642 from Brailita (a contemporary of I10495) didn't make the G25 due to very low coverage. His Y-hap is N-L708, so very likely would have shown strong East Asian admixture, too.

    You'll recall the Late Antique Romania sample was a Hun. As cool as these outliers are, I think I speak for everyone when I say we could really use some bona fide Dacians (and descendants) by now. Cremation sucks but it's not an insuperable problem-- I'd be astonished if there wasn't relevant material somewhere that could be tested.

    Sample with coverage, date, Y-chromosome info courtesy of Ajeje:
    Code:
    ROU_Ploiesti_Mdv:I10495___G-Y12277___AD_1007___Coverage_67.83%,0.078538,-0.177718,0.06675,0.028747,-0.053856,-0.006693,0.012691,0.014307,-0.007567,-0.011845,-0.007795,-0.005245,0.001784,-0.01913,0.001086,-0.008221,-0.001304,0.005321,0.00176,0.005002,-0.015473,0.009027,-0.007641,-0.000723,0.005029
    On North Eurasian PCA, basic components, & distances:
     
    I10495's radiocarbon dates coincide with the period when Pecheneg and Uz encampments extended to Romania (Cumans were not there yet), and he is closest to DA93 (8th century AD, Western Turk Khaganate/Onoq Confederation sample from Kazakhstan).

    Most Bulgars by that time were probably Balkan-admixed. I think DA142 (550–850 AD, Rostov) is more likely to be an Onogundur Bulgar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I17642 from Brailita (a contemporary of I10495) didn't make the G25 due to very low coverage. His Y-hap is N-L708, so very likely would have shown strong East Asian admixture, too.
    He does.


    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    You'll recall the Late Antique Romania sample was a Hun.
    Do we have his/her G25 coordinates?

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  6. #2244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkaevli View Post
    Do we have his/her G25 coordinates?
    Yes, here they are:

    Code:
    Romania_Late_Antiquity_Hun_(Hun_Elite_Profile):MSG1,0.034147,-0.356451,0.062602,-0.024871,-0.044008,-0.019801,0.00376,0.00923,0.003272,0.002734,-0.035238,-0.002698,0.00446,-0.006331,0.0019,0.001989,-0.005085,-0.007855,0.002514,0.003627,-0.01672,-0.008285,-0.011339,0.00253,0.001796
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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  8. #2245
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    The OstroGoths ( Eastern Goths ) ...............different from the VisiGoths ( Western Goths or as some say purer Goths )

    OstroGoths moved from the baltic sea to the black sea circa 150BC .............they mixed with Sarmatians and stayed there until circa 350AD ...........500years, clearly plenty of time to mix with locals...............went to invade the balkans and conquer the Romans in Italy .............capital became Ravenna in Italy and they lasted less than 100years being conquered by the invading Lombards ...................clearly it would be a stretch to make use of any Gothic lineage.

    VisiGoths ended up in Iberia
    The Byzantines (Belisarius and Narses) had already defeated the Ostrogoths in Italy before the Lombards invaded in 568.

    I agree with you that the Ostrogoths had definitely mixed with Balkan people before reaching Italy.

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  10. #2246
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    The OstroGoths ( Eastern Goths ) ...............different from the VisiGoths ( Western Goths or as some say purer Goths )

    OstroGoths moved from the baltic sea to the black sea circa 150BC .............they mixed with Sarmatians and stayed there until circa 350AD ...........500years, clearly plenty of time to mix with locals...............went to invade the balkans and conquer the Romans in Italy .............capital became Ravenna in Italy and they lasted less than 100years being conquered by the invading Lombards ...................clearly it would be a stretch to make use of any Gothic lineage.

    VisiGoths ended up in Iberia
    The Byzantines (Belisarius and Narses) had already defeated the Ostrogoths in Italy before the Lombards invaded in 568.

    I agree with you that the Ostrogoths had definitely mixed with Balkan and other people before reaching Italy.

  11. #2247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    The Byzantines (Belisarius and Narses) had already defeated the Ostrogoths in Italy before the Lombards invaded in 568.

    I agree with you that the Ostrogoths had definitely mixed with Balkan and other people before reaching Italy.
    It is not just about actual mixture, but about the treck they are coming with, like they brought actual Carpathian, Balkan and Sarmatian people with them - in an unmixed form also and fairly large numbers probably. This is true for Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals and Langobards, to some degree, probably, also some Suebian/Swabian groups. Like they were allied or subdued people which came with the Germanic core group, which too was already somewhat mixed sometimes.

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  13. #2248
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    The OstroGoths ( Eastern Goths ) ...............different from the VisiGoths ( Western Goths or as some say purer Goths )

    OstroGoths moved from the baltic sea to the black sea circa 150BC .............they mixed with Sarmatians and stayed there until circa 350AD ...........500years, clearly plenty of time to mix with locals...............went to invade the balkans and conquer the Romans in Italy .............capital became Ravenna in Italy and they lasted less than 100years being conquered by the invading Lombards ...................clearly it would be a stretch to make use of any Gothic lineage.

    VisiGoths ended up in Iberia
    technicly the ostrogoths are only those goths(greuthungi) that settled in the post hun period in pannonia; under the rule of the three amal brothers; later joined by the goths of thrace (theoderich strabo); the latest vyas paper incl two ostrogoth sites in pannonia (ie ~post bolia) balatonszemes and hacs; both are structured by a northern cluster and a southern cluster; while the latter overlaps with Europe_SE (italy) the former overlaps with Europe_NE (scandinavia) though hacs has a clear shift towards Europe_NWE (britain) and the south cluster seems integrated (see:Hacs5); an interesting feat is that the samples from the north cluster are Y-DNA G2a and J2b (?assimilated?) eg J2b also appears in old-saxony
    Last edited by alexfritz; 12-04-2022 at 02:54 PM.
    GENO2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA MYORIGINS 52WCEUROPE 40SEEUROPE 5BRITISHISLES 3WMIDEAST DNA.LAND 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN MYHERITAGE 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN GENEPLAZA 54.4NWEURO 37.6GRE/ALB 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LIVINGDNA 57.4S.GER 3.3NE.GER 25.8N.ITA 5S.ITA 4.3TUSCANY 2.5CYPRUS 1.7AEGEAN FTDNA 49.7 WESTERN EUROPE britain/ireland,cen.europe,scandinavia 50.3 SOUTHERN EUROPE ita-peninsula,greece&balkan,sardinia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Yes, here they are:

    Code:
    Romania_Late_Antiquity_Hun_(Hun_Elite_Profile):MSG1,0.034147,-0.356451,0.062602,-0.024871,-0.044008,-0.019801,0.00376,0.00923,0.003272,0.002734,-0.035238,-0.002698,0.00446,-0.006331,0.0019,0.001989,-0.005085,-0.007855,0.002514,0.003627,-0.01672,-0.008285,-0.011339,0.00253,0.001796
    Thank you for these beautiful explanations and presentations of the samples of this study, it must have required a considerable effort
    23andMe, averages
     
    Distance: 0.0163% / 0.01625846 | R6P
    35.7 French_Chalosse
    27.0 BelgianA
    14.2 Saharawi
    10.7 Sicilian_East
    9.4 Polish_Kashubian
    3.0 Mozabite
    Distance to closest:
    0.02643477 Spanish_CanariasLa_Palma



    Ancestry
     
    Distance: 0.0163% / 0.01634379 | R6P
    32.4 BelgianA
    28.8 French_Chalosse
    17.2 Berber_MAR_ERR
    10.0 Sicilian_East
    8.2 Polish_Kashubian
    3.4 Sardinian
    Distance to closest:
    0.02788822 Spanish_CanariasTenerife

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