"The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe"

[Kunig]

Can't say I'm willing to take someone too serious who doesn't even acknowledge the 1240k vs SG bias.
Kostenki14 Kostenki14.SG Anatolia_Barcin_N_I1583 Anatolia_Barcin_N_I1583.SG 0.000617772 0.000160485 3.84940 0.000118406 911339

RE Anveṣaṇam ? Perhaps, but the qpADM results are historically & uniparentally sensical. Ive got similar results, although I got passing values for Progress_EN

https://vicayana.substack.com/p/sout...rn-farce?sd=pf

Anatolian/Levantine-related ancestry is not detected in Khvalynsk_EN

Anatolian/Levantine-related ancestry is present in Progress_EN.

WHG-related and ANF-related ancestry is present in Yamnaya_Samara and likely from sources like Ukraine_N and Ukraine_VertebaCave_MLTrypillia respectively.

[Kunig]

There are also bottleneck in European IE populations. For example, both Poles and Lithuanians are Balto-Slavs, but Lithuanians have obtained far more non-IE-hg (N) than Poles. However, there are not much Uralic substratum in Lithuanian language. In the case of Anatolian, it has lost subjunctive and optative, probably due to substratum, which is more "probably" than Lithuanian linguistically.

Regarding the PU genome, this blog gives a detailed answer.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2021/...kra001-no.html

The prevailing linguistic opinion is that Hitto-Luwian is an outgroup. Substrata operated everythwere, it's nothing unique to Anatolia
This corrrelates with the lack of Progress/ Khvalnysk affinities in Anatolia, and suggests that so-called steppe Eneolithic was not the source of early PIE.

[Cvietok]

I don't quite understand what people mean with para-IE. Is it a sister culture/language of PIE, which means it is also descended from Pre-PIE? In that case, why don't we just call them Western and Eastern PIE?

Compared with Khvalynsk, Yamnaya has additional ANF mixture. If Yamnaya languages split before CWIE, Khvalynsk is likely to split before Yamnaya. Tocharian is related to Proto-Yamnaya and ultimately comes from Repin. Its migration route passed late Khvalynsk area, rather than that Khvalynsk is the ethnolinguistic origin. Therefore, the language of Khvalynsk should be more basal than Tocharian. Anatolian languages are more likely to be associated with Cernavoda or other western steppe groups.

I dont think Khvalynsk needs anything over EHG + CHG, does it ?

RUS_Khvalynsk_Eneol
CHG
RUS_Karelia_HG
best coefficients: 0.215 0.785
TP 0.174

Come Yamnaya, as we know, things shift westward, with need for Ukraine_N and EEF-type admixture.

[etrusco]

@all

in this discussion there is someone important that went off the radar. Do you all rememeber the R1a M417 sample at Alexandria, eastern Ukraine, that was wrongly dated in 2017, when he was discovered , at around 4000 BC. After that he has been redated but there were conflicting reports. I've heard about him being of Srubnaya or alternatively dated at around 2900/2800 BC. It would important to know how old exactly he is.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

@all

in this discussion there is someone important that went off the radar. Do you all rememeber the R1a M417 sample at Alexandria, eastern Ukraine, that was wrongly dated in 2017, when he was discovered , at around 4000 BC. After that he has been redated but there were conflicting reports. I've heard about him being of Srubnaya or alternatively dated at around 2900/2800 BC. It would important to know how old exactly he is.

I guess the dating to 2000 BC is correct; the closest samples are also dated around that period.

Distance to:	UKR_MBA:I6561__BC_2035__Cov_62.95%
0.02898575	RUS_Potapovka_MLBA:I0419__BC_2050__Cov_49.86%
0.02910820	KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA:I4774__BC_1553__Cov_68.24%
0.03057705	RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA:I3396__BC_1650__Cov_67.20%
0.03158189	Corded_Ware_CZE_early:VLI067.merged__BC_2768__Cov_61.93%
0.03187600	RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1086__BC_1875__Cov_39.63%
0.03290624	RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA:I3392__BC_1650__Cov_66.25%
0.03323330	TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258__BC_1554__Cov_65.91%
0.03353444	RUS_Fatyanovo_Yaroslavl_BA:NIK008AB__BC_2558__Cov_58.27%
0.03359456	KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul:I6797__BC_1745__Cov_74.47%
0.03386960	Corded_Ware_CZE_late:CAH005.B0102__BC_2399__Cov_58.30%
0.03407344	KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA:I4264__BC_1601__Cov_70.06%
0.03408332	RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1011__BC_1875__Cov_74.33%
0.03431069	RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1082__BC_1875__Cov_25.07%
0.03485400	KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul:I6789__BC_1782__Cov_71.69%

[VladimirTaraskin]

«An absolutely identical situation can be traced in a number of other settlements in Eastern Ukraine, where the final Abashev cultural layer has been identified. For example, the podkolokol-shaped Finalabashev vessels, ornamented with riveted rollers with finger presses and a notch, from the Alexandrian settlement on Oskol [Sanzharov, 2005, p. 174, Fig. 3, 1,2] are comparable to the prevailing ideas about the ceramics of the KMK. In this regard, the podkolokolovidny vessel from the settlement of Babino III [Sanzharov, 2005, p. 174, fig. 3, 6], similar in shape to the same vessel from Chernikovo Lake 1 (fig. 199, 2), acquires special informativeness. In the roller ornamentation of the CMC vessel, in addition to the traditional late-catacomb placement of the riveted rollers with finger presses, a roller imitation of the same traditional late-catacomb festoons facing upwards is observed on the neck. On the other hand, in line with the Abashev tradition, this vessel has roller ornamentation on the inner surface of the neck.»

https://www.archaeolog.ru/media/book...harov_2010.pdf

In general, this is the stage of the formation of Babino culture based on a mix of late Catacomb culture and late Abashevo culture.

[Tutut]

Compared with Khvalynsk, Yamnaya has additional ANF mixture. If Yamnaya languages split before CWIE, Khvalynsk is likely to split before Yamnaya. Tocharian is related to Proto-Yamnaya and ultimately comes from Repin. Its migration route passed late Khvalynsk area, rather than that Khvalynsk is the ethnolinguistic origin. Therefore, the language of Khvalynsk should be more basal than Tocharian. Anatolian languages are more likely to be associated with Cernavoda or other western steppe groups.

Starting from an initially assumed wrong answer will never get you to the truth or in our case the real source of PIE.
There is no precise science that uses such a selective approach.
Tocharian it is attested too late and far from the core for IE languages, including Anatolian to have anything to do with PIE.
There are many obstacles to it being designated as an IE language at all. If there is any connection, it is not direct and concerns only a limited number of lexical borrowings, while grammar goes beyond all frameworks and is related to non-IE languages.
"Typological features of Tocharian show strong differences to other Indo-European languages, while being similar to Uralic languages, specifically to the Samoyedic branch. The Tocharian vowel system shows strong similarities to Yeniseian languages, and is structurally identical to the South Siberian system represented by Ket, while being different from the typical Indo-European vowel system. Another striking characteristic of Tocharian is agglutinative case marking and case functions, as well as the lack of dative case. Agglutinative case systems are widely found in Siberia and Eastern Asia, but the case functions, in particular the Tocharian perlative, best match Samoyedic and Yukaghir and comparable systems in South Siberia."
In light of its strong non-IE features, Tocharian is rather a non-IE language with only some lexical IE influence.

[parasar]

@all

in this discussion there is someone important that went off the radar. Do you all rememeber the R1a M417 sample at Alexandria, eastern Ukraine, that was wrongly dated in 2017, when he was discovered , at around 4000 BC. After that he has been redated but there were conflicting reports. I've heard about him being of Srubnaya or alternatively dated at around 2900/2800 BC. It would important to know how old exactly he is.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post889697
Y3/F2597, I6561 Alexandria, Ukraine re-dated 2134-1950 calBC
https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/allen-...cient-dna-data

Also: "I6561 I6561 Mos70, Skeleton 5, 88 knees up tooth 2018 MathiesonNature2018 Pinhasi, Ron Context: Layer date based on 6 20-28 cM IBD individuals with Srubnaya/Alakul/Kazakhstan_MLBA individuals from 3900-3400 [based on these genetic results we ignore the direct date of 4153-3970 calBCE (5215±20 BP, PSUAMS-2832) from same site calibrated as 95.4%; IntCal20, OxCal v4.4.2 Bronk Ramsey (2020); r:5; Atmospheric data from Reimer et al (2020)] 5600 144 3900-3400 BCE Ukraine_MBA Alexandria Ukraine 49.54067778 37.69799444 1240K 1 1.422231 738261 .. M n/a (no relatives detected) R1a1a1 438 H2a1a"

[Rez_Ezn]

C54737CB-7B3D-40C8-A6A4-04A97DCEC3E3.jpeg

Why are the other samples from Iraq not published?

[RCO]

Low coverage ?