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Thread: "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe"

  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    This is just high Steppe_MLBA what was usual for much of Central Asia since the late Bronze Age. If anything he has some unusual West Asian affinity (maybe contamination)

    Target: KAZ_Otyrar_Antiquity:KNT001
    Distance: 3.0695% / 0.03069508 | R3P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    74.6 Tajik_Shugnan
    17.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    7.8 Tunisian_Rbaya
    This sarmatian+bmac description of central asian genomes is such a headscratcher, especially because Sarmatians themselves were partially central asian (hence the tamgas, cranial deformation and some specific avestan cognates). It lead to the "xiongnu_sarmatian" blunder in Jeong 2021, with the samples modeled as Sarmatian+bmac while they pretty much looked varied inbetween the Konyrtobe, Kangju and Wusun period sample profiles.

    The issue is obvious in that the Sarmatians have a high amount of steppe_mlba, a considerable amount of central asian and relative to the other iranian steppe nomads a relatively small amount of Siberian ancestry. If you shift that by adding big chunks of BMAC ancestry to it you essentially get iron age southern central Asia. It would be like modeling Gauls as Germanic+EEF essentially.
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  3. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    It just seems like ranting against a non-existent issue to be honest. I haven't seen anyone here saying this in thid thread except Capsian perhaps.

    And besides the steppe had a longlasting period of contact with and geneflow from neolithic/chalcolithic agriculturalists southeastern europe so even that route shouldn't be impossible even. In the end the lineage got assimilated into populations with steppe ancestry the question is when exactly.
    Not really.You,Riverman and others in this forum you trying badly to convince us that Neolithic farmers hadn't really a huge contribution to the formation of European peoples.Υou trying so desperate to prove that everything in EU is made up from kurganists. Unfortunately for you....ancient DNA is showing that ANF had the biggest impact for the ethnogenesis of various European subgroups and populations.

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  5. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    There is no such trail because there is no Sarmatian E-V13. The individual from Hungary is just someone from Europe who in the 3rd/4th century CE had some eastern steppe admixture. In relation to E-V13 samples from the AD centuries in Hungary, he is an outlier. This is the norm for other E-V13 samples from the Roman and early medieval era in Hungary:

    From the study about Avars in Hungary:



    You can't just pick single samples, present their profile as something which it isn't ("Sarmatian") and then create an entire theory about E-V13 in the steppe based on single finds.
    Yup that's Riverman's style!

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  7. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avraam Kyriakidis View Post
    Not really.You,Riverman and others in this forum you trying badly to convince us that Neolithic farmers hadn't really a huge contribution to the formation of European peoples.Υou trying so desperate to prove that everything in EU is made up from kurganists.
    I'm sorry but this is just false, nor would it make sense.

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  9. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    LlI think that we can all agree with such a statement. In my opinion, the best answer is related to the Hellenistic and early Roman era.
    Steppe ancestry referring to Steppe_EMBA. I highly doubt that event took place during the hellenistic period

    If you were referring to the iron age, then you probably have earlier cases going on with the Greek colonies as well as the Bosporan kingdom that predate the hellenistic period.
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  11. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Yup that's Riverman's style!
    It depends on the conext of the sample, how much weight I give it. Bruzmi did the same with late Illyrian samples from the West, which are no more indicative about the original distribution as those later Central Asian samples, because both are thousands of years from the original spread of E-V13 in the MBA-EIA.

    However, we have the modern samples to look at too, and these point to specific routes as well. So its not like we have to rely on the single samples found so far, but those just prove it was really there and more will come anyway.

    The point about the E-V13 Transtisza sample is not that he was a typical Sarmatian, but that he lived in a Sarmatian environment. That's what we will find more often, Carpathian basin people which moved to the steppe, because they adopted steppe ways, just like the Eastern Vekerzug Thracians or the Ferigile group etc. We also get Carpathian basin-like samples in Moldova and Moldova-Bulgarian likes in Pannonia, which proves that people were moving from one side of the Carpathians to the other. And since Cimmerian times we have connections to the Caucasus and beyond as well.

    That's from the paper, the fit is not optimal though, as they say in the paper:


    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abe4414
    Last edited by Riverman; 07-14-2022 at 01:48 PM.

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  13. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by Avraam Kyriakidis View Post
    Not really.You,Riverman and others in this forum you trying badly to convince us that Neolithic farmers hadn't really a huge contribution to the formation of European peoples.Υou trying so desperate to prove that everything in EU is made up from kurganists. Unfortunately for you....ancient DNA is showing that ANF had the biggest impact for the ethnogenesis of various European subgroups and populations.
    Top tier comedy here pal

    It never ceases to me amaze me how people can so strongly indentify with ancient components or macro-haplogroups.
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  15. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Yeah no this is nonsense. The Kangju state was formed by way of a nomadic entity taking control over a mainly Sogdian inhabited region, similar to how the Yuezhi ended up in control over Graeco-Bactria. Later in time their realm expanded and even reached to the Aral Sea, where the Alans become their vassals for a brief period.

    The only languages spoken there were variants of East Iranian. We have evidence of this by way of the Kultobe inscriptions. There are a lot of other textual attestations of languages in central asia at the time, and this so called "bmac language" is not found anywhere except as hypothetical substrate loanwords found in Indo-Iranian as well as some cases in Tocharian, which are commonly ascribed to bronze age contacts rather than the common era.
    The Chinese sources mention that the main Kangju population spoke a language similar to that of the Xiongnu.
    And if you check out the analysis in dozens of Kangju archaelogical studies, you can see that the leading authors speak of a multicultural archaeological findings in the Kangju cemeteries, concluding with the fact that there were more than one ethnic group among the Kangju population, meaning that the Kangju are definetely not the same as Sogdians. There were definitely Sogdians among the Kangju, but it is not the same population as before.
    And even among the archaeological finding of the Turkic cemeteries they found Sogdian like inscriptions, this doesnt proof the Turks were Sogdians because the main Turkic population spoke the language written in the Turkic inscriptions.
    What the recent aDNA studies have proven is that there is a 3 way mixture among medieval/late iron age Central Asian populations, BMAC, Steppe and East Asian components. And it is a fact that the BMAC population was already majority in Central Asia before the massive arrival of Indo European speakers (like the Sogdians). The BMAC population came from Western Asia, meaning their language was most probably some sort of Proto-Sumerian/Proto-Elamite language originally spoken in the Neolithic Fertile Crescent region.

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  17. #509

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  19. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Something along those lines was suggested as possible influence in the very early phase of the Lower Don culture, R. yar. I wrote about that in the past. The problem is just, that such an influence, even if being real, would predate anything even remotely PIE by quite a lot and would have been fully fused with local steppe foragers, which turned out dominant in patrilineages and parts of the culture.

    This paper and others from the same research groups are key, as is the site of Rakushechnyj Yar and others from the Lower Don:

    The simultaneous emergence in north-east region
    of the Sea of Azov at an aceramic stage of the whole
    set of functionally interrelated features of the Neoli-
    thic package can be most logically explained by mi-
    gration. The territory of the Zagros Mountains, the
    border zone between Iran, Iraq and Turkey (Anato-
    lia), where during Pre-Pottery period B, many paral-
    lels with the idiosyncratic features appeared, and
    assemblages from the Early Neolithic of the south-
    east European plain could be regarded as a possible
    ‘donor’ area. It is possible to assume the two most
    probable ways of penetration from this region to the
    Azov’s shores: the Black Sea coast of the Caucasus or
    by sea.
    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ication_detail

    Three problems:
    - its too early for PIE
    - the local lineages and some of their practises turned out dominant
    - there was no later migration of significance and that date would still suggest that steppe people had to move to Anatolia.

    So if Reich et al suggest a much later entry point, what could it be, other than Maikop, which is again too late? I want to know a concrete archaeological formation and culture, because I don't see it. R. yar might be just way to early for LPIE (xAnatolian). But from the Lower-Middle Don groups, we move directly to Sredny Stog and who would have Indoeuropeanised them? Don't see that at all.

    This means I have no issue seeing the contribution, from that area, I just have an issue with those people being actual PIE.
    Last edited by Riverman; 07-14-2022 at 03:58 PM.

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