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Thread: Impact of invasions of Great Britain and Ireland

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    Impact of invasions of Great Britain and Ireland

    Hello, as a result of the last articles on the subject, I thought it would be a good idea to talk about the different invasions or settlements and their impact on the different populations of Great Britain and Ireland, such as the German and Norman invasions of England, the invasion of the Gaels to Scotland and the plantation of Ulster in Ireland

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    Let's take the last one.
    It should perhaps be known as the plantations of Ulster.
    By 1600 there had been previous influx from English, with Hebridean/West coast Scots brought in to fight on the Irish side, and some of those settled.
    There was then a private plantation of Antrim and Down followed by a state-sponsored plantation of regions further west and also beyond the current Ulster into Connaught.
    Derry was planted by an English (London) sponsored group - hence the alternative name "Londonderry".
    But the remainder was planted with border reivers who were regarded as a nuisance in their former region as well as Scottish Lowlanders who were regarded by the crown as loyalists.
    Then in the 1690s during famine in Scotland, some people re-located to Ulster - mainly Down and Antrim where there was work in textile manufacture.
    These people were NOT planted, but looking back from now, it's hard to tell the difference without a lot of difficult research.

    IMPACTs
    From the pint of view of individuals trying to research family, the short version is "chaos and confusion".
    Professional Genealogist Chris Paton arrived back into Scotland as a child. His paternal surname is Scottish so that family line moved to Ireland way back. https://www.apgen.org/users/chris-paton (But I can't find his early ancestry just now.)
    I know people whose ancestors moved back into Scotland between 1790 and around the 1850s before later coming to Australia.
    Some of my own DNA matches in USA (especially connected with Georgia), came from Scots-Irish who went to Ireland in the Plantation time of the early 1600s and left later that century for America. Our common ancestors must have been born around 1600 or before. I know where my people came from in Scotland, but records for my lines tend to run out before reaching the time of a common ancestor. On their side, while they know they came from Ireland and some even know from where; it can be much more difficult working back to Scotland - certainly none of my matches have managed it.
    Last edited by Saetro; 08-01-2022 at 08:07 PM.

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    Thank you very much for commenting and if the genealogies are usually a confusing topic but for that reason I created the topic to be able to talk about how it should be represented or at least try to explain the different movements of populations in the British Isles

    Quote Originally Posted by Saetro;862523
    IMPACTs
    From the pint of view of individuals trying to research family, the short version is "chaos and confusion".
    Professional Genealogist Chris Paton arrived back into Scotland as a child. His paternal surname is Scottish so that family line moved to Ireland way back. [URL="https://www.apgen.org/users/chris-paton"
    https://www.apgen.org/users/chris-paton[/URL] (But I can't find his early ancestry just now.)
    I know people whose ancestors moved back into Scotland between 1790 and around the 1850s before later coming to Australia.
    Some of my own DNA matches in USA (especially connected with Georgia), came from Scots-Irish who went to Ireland in the Plantation time of the early 1600s and left later that century for America. Our common ancestors must have been born around 1600 or before. I know where my people came from in Scotland, but records for my lines tend to run out before reaching the time of a common ancestor. On their side, while they know they came from Ireland and some even know from where; it can be much more difficult working back to Scotland - certainly none of my matches have managed it.
    Do you happen to have any study that talks about the impact of the "Utech plantations? I understand that even if they spread to Great Britain it still has connections with the rest of the Irish

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    There was also a plantation in Munster, established in the 1580s, even earlier than the Ulster plantations: https://www.theirishstory.com/2011/0.../#.Yug_Ri-B1-U. I suspect some of my ancestors from that region may have been part of that, since they had a Scottish/northern English surname and were members of the (Protestant) Church of Ireland.
    Last edited by lehmannt; 08-01-2022 at 09:16 PM.
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    They do not know of a possible study or page to see the impact of different migrations to Ireland? because with this I remembered that there were parts that were controlled by Normans

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    'Chaos and confusion' - spot on!

    Quote Originally Posted by Saetro View Post
    Let's take the last one.
    It should perhaps be known as the plantations of Ulster.
    By 1600 there had been previous influx from English, with Hebridean/West coast Scots brought in to fight on the Irish side, and some of those settled.
    There was then a private plantation of Antrim and Down followed by a state-sponsored plantation of regions further west and also beyond the current Ulster into Connaught.
    Derry was planted by an English (London) sponsored group - hence the alternative name "Londonderry".
    But the remainder was planted with border reivers who were regarded as a nuisance in their former region as well as Scottish Lowlanders who were regarded by the crown as loyalists.
    Then in the 1690s during famine in Scotland, some people re-located to Ulster - mainly Down and Antrim where there was work in textile manufacture.
    These people were NOT planted, but looking back from now, it's hard to tell the difference without a lot of difficult research.

    IMPACTs
    From the pint of view of individuals trying to research family, the short version is "chaos and confusion".
    Professional Genealogist Chris Paton arrived back into Scotland as a child. His paternal surname is Scottish so that family line moved to Ireland way back. https://www.apgen.org/users/chris-paton (But I can't find his early ancestry just now.)
    I know people whose ancestors moved back into Scotland between 1790 and around the 1850s before later coming to Australia.
    Some of my own DNA matches in USA (especially connected with Georgia), came from Scots-Irish who went to Ireland in the Plantation time of the early 1600s and left later that century for America. Our common ancestors must have been born around 1600 or before. I know where my people came from in Scotland, but records for my lines tend to run out before reaching the time of a common ancestor. On their side, while they know they came from Ireland and some even know from where; it can be much more difficult working back to Scotland - certainly none of my matches have managed it.

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    Thank you very much everyone for commenting on this topic and if it is not a problem I would like to share the following
    1 Is there a PCA or similar that shows the differences between the Northern Irish and the rest of the island?
    2 If not a problem, I would also like to bring the rest of the invasions or migrations from Great Britain, such as the Gaelic to Scotland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lorddraco14 View Post
    Thank you very much everyone for commenting on this topic and if it is not a problem I would like to share the following
    1 Is there a PCA or similar that shows the differences between the Northern Irish and the rest of the island?
    2 If not a problem, I would also like to bring the rest of the invasions or migrations from Great Britain, such as the Gaelic to Scotland.
    From this limited number of (unofficial) samples in the G25 NW Euro PCA there does not appear to be a clear pattern of difference between modern Northern Irish samples and modern Irish samples from the rest of the island:
    Attachment 50574

    On the fine-scale Celtic vs Germanic PCA, which doesn't differentiate modern northern Irish from Irish or Scottish, there is considerable overlap between the modern Irish and modern Scottish samples, although the Scottish as a group are shifted toward the Germanic center of gravity:
    Attachment 50575
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    Quote Originally Posted by lehmannt View Post
    From this limited number of (unofficial) samples in the G25 NW Euro PCA there does not appear to be a clear pattern of difference between modern Northern Irish samples and modern Irish samples from the rest of the island:
    Attachment 50574

    On the fine-scale Celtic vs Germanic PCA, which doesn't differentiate modern northern Irish from Irish or Scottish, there is considerable overlap between the modern Irish and modern Scottish samples, although the Scottish as a group are shifted toward the Germanic center of gravity:
    Attachment 50575
    Thanks for answering .
    1 And well with that I think it can be said that the different "plantations" seem to be more than anything a cultural change or at least a union of very similar groups
    2 This Scottish displacement to the Germanic is not due to kingdoms like Northumbria kingdom?

    https://www.worldhistory.org/img/r/p...g?v=1631193302

    I see it as possible and if not it can also simply be the proximity to England

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    A few recent papers on the DNA evidence for migration into Ireland (not exhaustive by any means). Only included articles when Ireland was the principal subject, there may also be important findings in papers in which Ireland was not the main subject.

    Historical Era
    Insular Celtic population structure and genomic footprints of migration (2018)
    Using GLOBETROTTER we detected Irish admixture signals from Britain and Europe and estimated dates for events consistent with the historical migrations of the Norse-Vikings, the Anglo-Normans and the British Plantations.

    The Irish DNA Atlas: Revealing Fine-Scale Population Structure and History within Ireland (2018)
    We additionally detect admixture events that provide evidence of Norse-Viking gene flow into Ireland, and reflect the Ulster Plantations.

    Long-term archaeological perspectives on new genomic and environmental evidence from early medieval Ireland (2019)
    ... admixture signals in the genomes of Irish people caused by historically-recorded migration events. Among these was Norse settlement in the 9th-10th Centuries CE, which has a greater than expected signal in the contemporary population of the island.


    Prehistory
    Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome (2015)

    A dynastic elite in monumental Neolithic society (2020)
    Samples from passage tombs including Newgrange.

    The Changing Face of Neolithic and Bronze Age Ireland: A Big Data Approach to the Settlement and Burial Records (2016)
    Last edited by pmokeefe; 08-05-2022 at 07:18 AM.
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