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Thread: Which Uralic-speaking population of European Russia is the least Balto-Slavic-admixed

  1. #1
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    Question Which Uralic-speaking population of European Russia is the least Balto-Slavic-admixed

    It seems that among Uralic groups living west of the Ural Mountains, only Mari and Udmurt have no Balto-Slavic admixture. Followed by Komi, who already have substantial Balto-Slavic (or at least Balto-Slavic-like admixture). Apparently the Erzya have the highest level of Balto-Slavic admixture.

    https://bedlan.net/uralic/

    Code:
    Saami_Kola,0.1153881,0.0145982,0.1058766,0.078812,0.0038084,0.0149208,0.010546,0.0146532,0.0050108,-0.0292034,0.0167058,-0.0112025,0.0178579,-0.003733,-0.0067011,0.000779,0.0014019,-0.0007919,-0.0033311,0.0009223,0.0126184,0.0006801,-3.06e-05,-0.0015816,0.0017212
    Karelian,0.1273094,0.0768108,0.093286,0.0808381,0.0275575,0.0224719,0.0102478,0.0152161,0.0017601,-0.0294117,0.0052308,-0.0110312,0.0189294,0.0089496,-0.00445,0.0013259,-0.0023746,-0.0014089,-0.0018435,0.0037822,0.0064659,-0.0009743,0.001154,0.0006975,0.0038138
    Vepsian,0.128051,0.0723847,0.0918707,0.0796554,0.0249447,0.0203745,0.0108626,0.0158712,0.0029428,-0.0290768,0.0050341,-0.0117979,0.0223569,0.0118126,-0.0086559,-0.0015395,-0.0013618,0.000183,-0.0014804,0.0035711,0.0042841,-0.0025281,0.0006231,0.0009839,0.0038651
    Ingrian,0.1297583,0.0900437,0.0898803,0.0756897,0.033032,0.0258437,0.009949,0.0129993,-0.0006137,-0.0265457,0.0031937,-0.0098913,0.0146183,0.0056883,-0.0029407,0.002696,-0.001608,-0.0005913,-0.0043573,0.004961,0.0040343,0.000165,0.007477,0.002008,0.0030337
    Moksha,0.1267989,0.0885541,0.0724449,0.0615638,0.0239121,0.0203869,0.0098939,0.0131301,-0.0035382,-0.0277911,0.0010556,-0.0067139,0.0173785,0.0143128,-0.0123369,-0.0022142,0.0031293,-0.0011908,-0.0004779,-0.0025388,-0.0022959,-0.0033139,0.0038454,-0.0006147,0.0015686
    Erzya,0.127387,0.0819194,0.0728158,0.0672378,0.0236452,0.0202195,0.0105755,0.0129611,-0.0045335,-0.0284745,0.0007984,-0.0105654,0.0176907,0.0121336,-0.0121582,2.21e-05,0.0043244,-0.0002008,0.0014664,0.0012297,-0.0025892,-0.0021846,0.0035125,-0.0064667,0.0015468
    Mari,0.1013024,-0.0507766,0.0928472,0.0614992,-0.029667,0.0006692,0.0115628,0.0184148,-0.0037224,-0.0393264,0.028288,-0.0152266,0.0344596,-0.03947,-0.0348802,-0.02376,-0.0049806,-0.008032,-0.038765,-0.0317402,0.0163212,0.0052924,-0.0506792,0.010869,-0.0021794
    Komi,0.1187174,0.0307705,0.0850408,0.0682822,-0.0046161,0.0141677,0.0094945,0.0130841,-0.0030884,-0.0298138,0.0099383,-0.0086022,0.0182258,-0.0062204,-0.0087676,-0.0047601,-0.0014733,-0.0014444,-0.0039595,-0.0039646,0.0014723,-0.0011993,-0.0001234,0.0012051,0.0004191
    Udmurt,0.10784,-0.0207012,0.0797175,0.0663144,-0.0305697,0.0088744,0.0086169,0.0107155,-0.0110547,-0.0356155,0.0211855,-0.0059946,0.0150719,-0.0308803,-0.0103913,-0.0054531,-0.0041823,-0.0010005,-0.009682,-0.0095879,0.0007358,0.0031516,-0.0043516,0.0081752,-0.0028033


    East of the Urals:

    Code:
    Mansi,0.0858551,-0.1662567,0.1091496,0.0617391,-0.0731126,-0.0220721,0.0089639,0.0169443,0.0012563,-0.034833,0.0522891,-0.0038323,0.0196231,-0.0715246,-0.0247981,-0.0130504,0.0005961,-0.0012849,-0.0058359,-0.0123809,-0.0026739,0.0235293,0.0147899,-0.0036493,-0.0069283
    Khanty,0.0841301,-0.1780707,0.1122999,0.0616228,-0.0828248,-0.0225053,0.0086442,0.0135245,-0.0007559,-0.0339039,0.0536024,-0.004939,0.0215493,-0.0724793,-0.0238101,-0.0134031,-0.0059013,0.0019389,-0.0018034,-0.011897,-0.0037977,0.0241123,0.0176886,-0.0030909,-0.0102933
    Nenets,0.0695459,-0.2648499,0.1293525,0.0385016,-0.1131596,-0.0498097,0.017015,0.0278528,0.0119442,-0.0143419,0.0734157,0.0025478,0.0101686,-0.0566729,-0.0237918,-0.0125297,-0.0032859,0.0063217,0.0086983,-0.0089292,0.0088097,0.0170145,0.0300972,-0.0053498,-0.0013651
    Selkup,0.0729891,-0.2545805,0.1229178,0.0419092,-0.1051348,-0.0419556,0.0140859,0.0204944,0.0076442,-0.0202282,0.0638187,-0.0014799,0.0115956,-0.0672888,-0.0199762,-0.0116016,-0.004099,0.0045449,0.0124913,0.0003361,-0.0054902,0.0239423,0.0380683,-0.0094817,-0.006676
    Nganassan,0.0476917,-0.4066181,0.1557885,0.0023902,-0.1594452,-0.0882129,0.0285066,0.0433367,0.0310876,0.0128477,0.1028569,0.0094115,-0.0040734,-0.0261619,-0.0219731,-0.0123307,-0.0010952,0.0134165,0.0268365,-0.0008505,0.0431363,-0.0118954,0.0336096,0.0003977,0.0135556
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-07-2022 at 07:01 PM.

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    When using my World 6th Century BC calculator (where "Europe_East_Central" represents the Balto-Slavic component):

    https://www.exploreyourdna.com/calcu...century-bc.htm



    I wonder if in all cases this is actual Balto-Slavic admixture, or perhaps in some cases this is only ancestral similarity?

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    ^^^
    It becomes apparent that the Mari population should become its own Mari-like component, because the distance is huge.

    Or perhaps the Mari are just so drifted, or something is missing in the calculator model to model their ancestry correctly.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-07-2022 at 07:19 PM.

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    Finno-Ugrics generally share the same shift with Mari, it's just that it peaks in Mari, but I remember being told it isn't present outside of G25 so there's that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chum View Post
    Finno-Ugrics generally share the same shift with Mari, it's just that it peaks in Mari, but I remember being told it isn't present outside of G25 so there's that.
    But if I add Mari to SOURCE populations, modern North Russians still don't prefer the Mari, but ancient Levanluhta as the source of their Non-Slavic admixture.

    For example:

    Target: Russian_Leshukonsky
    Distance: 1.5912% / 0.01591159
    51.4 Europe_East_Central:Balto_Slavic
    29.6 Europe_Northeast:Levanluhta_Saami_ancient
    8.0 Europe_Eastern:Bolshoy_Oleny_Ostrov_ancient
    8.0 Mari
    3.0 Sarmatia_Asiatica_Tagar_Scythians

    And:

    Target: Russian_Pinega
    Distance: 1.9223% / 0.01922317
    62.0 Europe_East_Central:Balto_Slavic
    30.2 Europe_Northeast:Levanluhta_Saami_ancient
    5.2 Mari
    2.6 Europe_Eastern:Bolshoy_Oleny_Ostrov_ancient
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-07-2022 at 07:34 PM.

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    Levanluhta are ancient Saami samples and BOO are some other sort of ancient Uralics.

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    Estonians at 82% are leaders, more than many Slavic populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But if I add Mari to SOURCE populations, modern North Russians still don't prefer the Mari, but ancient Levanluhta as the source of their Non-Slavic admixture.

    For example:

    Target: Russian_Leshukonsky
    Distance: 1.5912% / 0.01591159
    51.4 Europe_East_Central:Balto_Slavic
    29.6 Europe_Northeast:Levanluhta_Saami_ancient
    8.0 Europe_Eastern:Bolshoy_Oleny_Ostrov_ancient
    8.0 Mari
    3.0 Sarmatia_Asiatica_Tagar_Scythians

    And:

    Target: Russian_Pinega
    Distance: 1.9223% / 0.01922317
    62.0 Europe_East_Central:Balto_Slavic
    30.2 Europe_Northeast:Levanluhta_Saami_ancient
    5.2 Mari
    2.6 Europe_Eastern:Bolshoy_Oleny_Ostrov_ancient
    Did you try to run the models with any of the Estonian samples i.e. do they really prefer Levänluhta?

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Estonians at 82% are leaders, more than many Slavic populations.
    Yes but I wanted to focus on Russia because I want to identify the best proxy population(s) for Pre-Slavic substrate(s) of ethnic Russians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Did you try to run the models with any of the Estonian samples i.e. do they really prefer Levänluhta?
    No, I haven't tried it yet. Do you mean running the models with Estonians in SOURCE or Estonians in TARGET?

    Estonians are probably not a good proxy for the pre-Slavic substrate of Russians. They are too much Balto-Slavic admixed themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    No, I haven't tried it yet. Do you mean running the models with Estonians in SOURCE or Estonians in TARGET?

    Estonians are probably not a good proxy for the pre-Slavic substrate of Russians. They are too much Balto-Slavic admixed themselves.
    I did not mean modern Estonians but aDNA just like in the case of Levänluhta, samples like OLS_10 and such. So, in that case they would a source for both Pinega and Leshukonsky.

    EDIT NEO538 of the fresh Allentoft et al should be very interesting in this respect, unluckily the sample is not yet available, if I'm right.
    Last edited by Huck Finn; 08-07-2022 at 08:00 PM. Reason: EDIT

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