what groups of people does Z251 represent

[brianthebold9]

Hello All,

I would like to ask if anyone is making a connection between Z251 and its sub branches with historical groups of people and a timeline of when the were around. I have read an e book called "The Tribe within"
by Anthony Murphy Barrett. He contends that Z251 represents the five Gaelic tribes of Brittany. I know that there are several sub branches of Z251 it would be great if we could connect them to a group of people and not just have numbers on a spreadsheet. What do you think. I am trying to get a sense of just what Z251 and its sub branches represents.

Thanks Brian

[seferhabahir]

I skimmed through the e book and it appears that the estimates for the appearance of P312, L21, DF13, and Z251 are not consistent with the novel SNP evidence found for subclades of DF13 by a couple thousand years. The e book puts them much later than they probably were. We have found that there are several subclades of DF13 with 60 or more FGC SNPs, making it likely that Z251 and other DF13 sons might possibly be 5000 years old. My own Z251 line broke off from Z251 (well, from Z251>S11556>S9294) a long time before there were any Gaelic tribes or Celts, so I can't provide much insight on that.

See the discussion at

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...arly-branching

I am concentrating on the 251-11EE cluster in particular, which probably has no connection to later Gaelic tribes, but instead suggests it derives from some early southern European or Mediterranean branch of Z251, leading to the present day cluster of Ashkenazim that could have come from a Roman Empire convert 2000 years ago, or perhaps from a Z251 male that traveled to the Levant, and assimilated (e.g., a Sea Peoples type?), only to find all his descendants back in Europe due to the subsequent Jewish Diaspora and now lumped in as "continental L21" folks. There is no Z251 found in the Middle East that I know of, but it does not mean 251-11EE never was there. It may mean the only surviving remnant showed up 1000 years ago in the Rhineland, and later descendents moved east into Poland and Lithuania as did many other present day Jewish clusters. The interesting thing for me is where was the Z251-11EE ancestor hanging about 4,000-4,500 years ago, and how come there aren't more of his descendents around? The STR markers (and large GD) for the 251-11EE cluster are so different from the rest of Z251 that it suggests a pretty severe bottleneck.

[brianthebold9]

Hello All, I have a new source on the internet that suggests that Z251 " has origins in Denmark region in the last 1000 years. It is a parallel line to the House of Normandy SNP"
Is this a possible connection to the Baltic cluster I read about. Any comments.

[seferhabahir]

It is possible that "something" originated 1000 years ago in Denmark, such as a very new subclade of Z251, sort of similar to how L583 designates a 1000 year old subset of the Z251-11EE Baltic Cluster, but all of the evidence presented via STRs (GDs up to 39 or 40 at 111 markers between various Z251 people) and SNPs (60 or more FGC SNPs in some Z251 lines not found in other lines) says the origins of Z251 and its various subclades, such as S9294 or FGC13899, date back several thousands of years before anything like Denmark or Normandy ever existed. The Baltic Cluster has nothing to do with Denmark. Its name relates to where some of the ancestors of people in Z251-11EE where found, such as Latvia and Lithuania. However, 1000 years ago a split of L583- and L583+ more than likely occurred in the Rhineland. Care to list your source?

[George Chandler]

Hello All, I have a new source on the internet that suggests that Z251 " has origins in Denmark region in the last 1000 years. It is a parallel line to the House of Normandy SNP"
Is this a possible connection to the Baltic cluster I read about. Any comments.

What do you believe to be the House of Normandy SNP and why?

George

[brianthebold9]

unfortunately I did not ask permission to quoit my source, but in my enthusiasm I wanted to share the information. It was an internet research company that specializes in matching DNA signatures with probable geographical locations. I do have a hard time understanding how a DNA line could be parallel. thanks for the information on the Baltic cluster, I know many people are somewhat confused by the name. I have some tests pending with YSEQ and I hope it will give me some guidance as to where I fall under Z251. I am intrigued by the reference to the Rhineland because that may be the approximate area my family came from circa 1730.

[brianthebold9]

Hello George, I must confess that I only base it on the E book that I read called A Tribe Within. While I do not consider myself a citizen scientist on the scale of most of the people reading this, I am trying to do my part by doing DNA testing and sharing the results. Also by trolling the internet for any reference to Z251 that I can find and to ask questions and start a dialog like this.
I guess my next question would be is Z251 still to old to put a face on it as it were, or will there be more significant SNP's that will further divide the group. I am excited by how much traffic the post has generated.

[edbrock326]

I'm no expert on the subject either. I did read the E book "A Tribe Within" by Anthony Murphy Barrett and enjoyed it. I read the list of Celtic tribes associated in the book with Z-251 and at first thought here are the answers to my origins. The book goes on to discuss the Norman invasion and the Bretons place in William the Conquerors army which could answer several questions I had about my Brock line as they were supposed to be of Norman decent. Then I started questioning where this info was coming from and the source. Anthony Murphy Barrett didn't explain his sources or what he based his info on about the tribes he says are Z-251. It is a great story but I have to dismiss it as just another yarn spun until I can see what he bases it all on.
Ed Brock

[seferhabahir]

I am concentrating on the 251-11EE cluster in particular, which probably has no connection to later Gaelic tribes, but instead suggests it derives from some early southern European or Mediterranean branch of Z251, leading to the present day cluster of Ashkenazim that could have come from ... perhaps from a Z251 male that traveled to the Levant, and assimilated (e.g., a Sea Peoples type?), only to find all his descendants back in Europe due to the subsequent Jewish Diaspora and now lumped in as "continental L21" folks.

Stumbled across this tidbit recently as a way to explain the above hypothesis. Let's say that some Bell Beaker groups that perhaps had ancestors of Z251-11EE moved down into Sardinia after the explosion of DF13 sons like Z251. Bell Beaker is known to have been in Sardinia so this is not really controversial. This next part might be. See the following article on archaeologist Adam Zertal's excavations in el–Ahwat, a site in Northern Israel. Since 2001, Zertal has written in about his strong belief that el–Ahwat housed a community of Sherden, a ‘Sea Peoples’ group known from 13th to 11th century Egyptian records, believed by some to have originated in Sardinia.

Sardinians in Central Israel? The Excavator of El-Ahwat Makes His Final Case

http://www.redstate.com/diary/Jeff_E...is-final-case/

The article says that el–Ahwat has the potential to serve as the only confirmed site of a non-Philistine ‘Sea Peoples’ settlement in the Levant, while striking a blow against the prevailing scholarly views that the ‘Sea Peoples’ were largely Aegeo-Anatolian in culture and origin, and that they settled in coastal areas that allowed for access to the Mediterranean Sea. On the other hand, it also says any effort to securely place non–Philistine ‘Sea Peoples’ anywhere in Canaan is difficult. Much of the article has specifics about the actual archaeological dig, so I will leave that to other posters (like Alan, maybe he would like to comment, it is not my area of expertise).

Let's look at a possible timeline:

~4800 ybp = DF13 formed (YFull estimate)
~4200 ybp = Z251 formed (YFull estimate)
~3800 ybp = end of Bell Beaker era
~3300 ybp = Sherden at el–Ahwat (maybe)
~1900 ybp = Jewish Diaspora begins
~1000 ybp = MRCA of living 251-11EE (estimate)

Don't confuse the MRCA of living 251-11EE with its divergence from the rest of Z251 (or more accurately, the rest of FGC11986). We can observe through the number of novel SNPs that 251-11EE had a complete disconnect from the rest of Z251 and FGC11986 very early after those SNPs formed, and may have then gone somewhere unique. This is only one possible idea. It's the most fun for now.

[Agamemnon]

^^ Given the shadowy (and potentially diverse) background of the Sea peoples, this isn't exactly far-fetched to say the least. I, for one, am quite certain that the remnants of the Sea Peoples were absorbed by the larger Judean population, this would make sense given the Eastern Mediterranean affinities of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews. In other words, we might well be descended from (irony of ironies!) the Philistines of old!