Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 70

Thread: Chatter about a possible Afanasievo Culture link to R1b

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,836
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain

    Chatter about a possible Afanasievo Culture link to R1b

    This is what has been making the internet rounds in the last couple of days, and I would caution that it is not from a published source. Wanted to make folks aware of it more than anything...

    http://pereformat.ru/2014/05/arbins-2/

    As translated by a Russian that goes by "kosmonomad" on Eupedia...

    Klejn:
    I have a student, Aleksey Kovalev, He has been excavating many years in Mongolia and Xinjiang. He published in The Russian Archeology Yearbook 2011 a sensational article "The great Chemurchek migration" - about origin of Chemurchek culture of Altay and Xinjiang directly form Western and Southern France. It is the 3rd millenium b.c. He links this culture to Tochars. I have the impression that the migration is confirmed, but the link to Tochars calls for a line-up of questions...

    I think you will be interested to know that my student Alexei Kovalev , the man who investigated Chemurchek culture of Altai , Mongolia and Xinjiang (apparently Tochars) and released two books about it, did DNA tests on afanasievans and okunevans. Two out of three afanasievans and one okunevan were R1b1 (M269), one afanasievan - R1b1. Kovalev has radiocarbon ages of many afanasievans: calibrated 3000-2600 b.c. Chemurchek culture very clearly is from France.
    Klyosov:
    I advise to A. Kovalev that he shows the data to me before the publication, to avoid an embarrassment. I hope he has data on inhumation? ...I don't exclude at all that ancient R1b were in Southern Siberia, I myself described it and dated based on DNA. Simply we have to exclude false attribution and we should know who determined these R1b and R1b1, what sort of haplotypes (if they were not done - it's a big miss) , and put it in historical context. I think you do not need to be explained, like A. Kovalev. I hope it is clear why A. Kovalev should contact me.
    We already know the area to the east was already heavily populated by R1a-Z93 by the time the Bronze Age rolled around.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 06-05-2014 at 11:15 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  2. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-06-2014),  AJL (06-08-2014),  Bernard (06-10-2014),  DMXX (06-05-2014),  Geolocke (06-07-2014),  Joe B (06-06-2014),  lgmayka (06-05-2014),  Michał (06-07-2014),  parasar (06-05-2014),  Piquerobi (06-06-2014),  rms2 (06-07-2014)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,694
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Interesting if the testing is true but the direct from France bit is nuts

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-06-2014),  AJL (06-08-2014),  rms2 (06-07-2014)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,694
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    I suppose its still fair to say that where M269 was hiding before 3000BC still remains completely unknown. Doesnt seem to have been among the first farming waves. Therefore is unlikely to have been at the origin or in the main path of farming.

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-06-2014),  jeanL (06-05-2014),  Piquerobi (06-06-2014)

  7. #4
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom
    I have seen articles by Kovalev on the Chemurchek culture. In fact I just cited one of them in something I'm writing, so I can lay hands right on it: Kovalev, A. A. and Erdenebaatar, D. 2009, Discovery of new cultures of the Bronze Age in Mongolia according to the data obtained by The International Central Asian Archaeological Expedition, In J. Bemmann, H. Parzinger, E. Pohl, D. Tseveendorzh (eds.), Current Archaeological Research in Mongolia: Papers from the First International Conference on “Archaeological Research in Mongolia” held in Ulaanbaatar, August 19th–23rd, 2007. Bonn Contributions to Asian Archaeology 4, 149-170. http://archaeology.itcwin.com/articles/A501.pdf

    There is an illustration there (fig 3.3) of a Chemurchek culture anthropomorphic stele. The culture is called Qiemu’erqieke by other authors. Jia and Betts 2010 fig. 6 shows more stelae of that culture. http://www.clarkriley.com/JIES3834we...275-317%29.pdf

    I ignored an article by Kovalev claiming an origin in Southern France. It's obvious enough that the stelae clusters in both regions have a common origin in Yamnaya.

  8. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-06-2014),  AJL (06-08-2014),  ArmandoR1b (06-05-2014),  Joe B (06-06-2014),  lgmayka (06-05-2014),  Michał (06-07-2014),  parasar (06-05-2014),  rms2 (06-07-2014)

  9. #5
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    We already know the area to the east was already heavily populated by R1a-Z93 by the time the Bronze Age rolled around.
    Yes, but that most likely spread with Indo-Iranians. It seems perfectly possible that R1b-M73 spread east prior to Andronovo. That would explain why it is found in Turkic populations, but not to any really noticeable degree in India and Iran.

  10. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-06-2014),  AJL (06-08-2014),  ArmandoR1b (06-05-2014),  DMXX (06-05-2014),  Humanist (06-05-2014)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,236
    Sex
    Location
    North Florida
    Ethnicity
    Pred.Iberian/Italian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z279(xM153)
    mtDNA (M)
    L2a1a3c

    United States of America Spain Basque Italy Portugal Cuba
    IMO it doesn't matter where R1b-L11 was hiding before 3000 BC, it could have been anywhere, what matters is where they were by the time the Bell Beaker expansions started. R1b was likely widespread throughout Eurasia since the Epipaleolithic, they weren't the big players of the time though, but they certainly became the big players alongside mt-DNA H when the Bell Beakers rolled around.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to jeanL For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-06-2014)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,694
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    I was also about to post that the article is a lot more interesting if you reverse the direction suggested in the implausible France to Altai interpretation and of course look to an intermediate point. I

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-06-2014),  rms2 (06-07-2014)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,694
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    All the evidence is against this to date. Not even the new rather older SNP counting technique ages would place the main west European forms of R1b before 4500BC. What is more is west European R1b is all from the same young L11 lineage. So, yes R1b was somewhere in Eurasia since the upper palaeolithic but the vast majority of R1b in the western half of Europe is a single late Neolithic/copper age line. Also, dont take it for granted that there is an exact link between beaker and L11 or P312. We also dont know that. We just know that by 2600BC there was M269xU106 in Germany. Copper age ancient DNA from immediate pre-beaker times so far is not R1b. As it stands, all the evidence suggests R1b was new to western Europe in the beaker period and certainly the most likely SNP dating of western European type R1b suggests it can be no earlier than the late Neolithic. Also we dont know if all beaker using people were R1b from the start - all we know is German beaker people included M269xU106 c. 2600BC.

    I dont understand the comment that its not important where L11 was in pre-beaker times. I certainly am not happy not having any knowledge between 22000BC at Mal'ta and 2600BC at Kromsdorf.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    IMO it doesn't matter where R1b-L11 was hiding before 3000 BC, it could have been anywhere, what matters is where they were by the time the Bell Beaker expansions started. R1b was likely widespread throughout Eurasia since the Epipaleolithic, they weren't the big players of the time though, but they certainly became the big players alongside mt-DNA H when the Bell Beakers rolled around.
    Last edited by alan; 06-05-2014 at 10:36 PM.

  16. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-06-2014),  parasar (06-05-2014),  Piquerobi (10-22-2014),  Rafe (08-18-2017)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,694
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Another new development is that SNP counting suggests that M269 and M73 were old enough to have existed somewhere in Eurasia around the time when early farmers were spreading across Europe but the evidence suggests that they were not among them - both ancient DNA and the lack of old enough forms of R1b in the western half of Europe.

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-06-2014)

  19. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,236
    Sex
    Location
    North Florida
    Ethnicity
    Pred.Iberian/Italian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z279(xM153)
    mtDNA (M)
    L2a1a3c

    United States of America Spain Basque Italy Portugal Cuba
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    All the evidence is against this to date. Not even the new rather older SNP counting technique ages would place the main west European forms of R1b before 4500BC. What is more is west European R1b is all from the same young L11 lineage. So, yes R1b was somewhere in Eurasia since the upper palaeolithic but the vast majority of R1b in the western half of Europe is a single late Neolithic/copper age line. Also, dont take it for granted that there is an exact link between beaker and L11 or P312. We also dont know that. We just know that by 2600BC there was M269xU106 in Germany. Copper age ancient DNA from immediate pre-beaker times so far is not R1b. As it stands, all the evidence suggests R1b was new to western Europe in the beaker period and certainly the most likely SNP dating of western European type R1b suggests it can be no earlier than the late Neolithic. Also we dont know if all beaker using people were R1b from the start - all we know is German beaker people included M269xU106 c. 2600BC.

    I dont understand the comment that its not important where L11 was in pre-beaker times. I certainly am not happy not having any knowledge between 22000BC at Mal'ta and 2600BC at Kromsdorf.
    I never said in my quote that the R1b-L11 defining mutations took place before 4500 BC. The fact that the majority of R1b in Europe seats below the L11 node, doesn't discredit what I said about R1b-M269 being widespread, or even in Europe before the Neolithic, it simply shows that the expanding clades were below L11, nothing more nothing less. R1b-L11+ men did not have 23andme or FTDNA back then, so I doubt they went around typing people for their haplogroups, and annihilating them if they turned out not to be R1b+. Europe does have older clades of R1b, which are extremely rare, those clades in my opinion attest to the antiquity of the haplogroup in the region. Just as the rare C-V20 clades have been vindicated now with La Braña. What is more, mt-DNA attest to an expansion out of Iberia of haplogroup H, so the launch point of the Beakers was likely somewhere in there, or France. I feel I should point out, that the SNP counting method yields much older dates that the STRs, so yes, there is yet a possibility for R1b-L11 to have risen before 4500 BC. Also what I meant by my comment, was that R1b-L11 was likely widespread throughout Europe by the time the Beakers started.

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to jeanL For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (06-05-2014),  palamede (03-02-2017)

Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. What culture today has preserved indo European steppe culture most?
    By Censored in forum General Sociology/Ethnology
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 11-02-2020, 06:41 PM
  2. What happened to Afanasievo
    By Censored in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 79
    Last Post: 10-20-2020, 11:54 PM
  3. The European Megalithic culture was a seafaring culture
    By Elizabeth in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 12-22-2019, 10:29 PM
  4. Replies: 51
    Last Post: 02-16-2017, 09:22 PM
  5. Replies: 50
    Last Post: 12-15-2013, 03:18 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •