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Thread: Discovery of a Central Ireland Cluster within L1066

  1. #1
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    Discovery of a Central Ireland Cluster within L1066

    A new central Ireland cluster has been identified for a subgroup within L1066.

    Building on AncientCelt's work to identify L1066's having the signature of DYS389i = 14 and YCAII = 22/23, we've identified a geographic cluster for this subgroup of L1066. Some of these test kits are not members of L21, but were harvested from surname projects or y-search. Some have not tested L1066, but I'm confident that they all are based on their HTs. These kits include surnames Curley, Burke, Chapman/Campbell, McMahon, Flood, Ryan, and Dolan. I've traced the lineages for as many of these kits as I was able to, and mapped them on the attached image.

    image.jpg

    There's a pretty strong geographic pattern of central Ireland around Lough Ree in counties Roscommon, Galway, Longford, Cavan, and Westmeath. The other interesting thing about this cluster is that, other than Curley, these kits are all single isolated kits or small young groups within their own surnames. They do not appear to belong to the major ancient lineages of their well known surname clans. Also, some of the surnames follow a pattern of arriving or appearing in this region around the 1500's. The MRCA estimate for this subclade is centered in the neighborhood of 800 AD.

    It looks like this cluster represents an ancient local tribe long present in the area, with the various descendant branches acquiring surnames around the 1500's, the surname adoption possibly being prompted by English settlement.

    Let's try to keep this thread focused on this particular subgroup, not the origins of Z253 or L1066 in general.
    Last edited by miiser; 06-05-2014 at 10:07 PM.

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to miiser For This Useful Post:

     AncientCelt (06-06-2014),  IrishMorgan (08-09-2014),  MikeWhalen (06-06-2014),  rms2 (06-08-2014)

  3. #2
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    Miiser,

    We've got an O'Byrne also that we can add to the list of surnames matching the cluster, still keeping with the heavy Central Irish theme.

  4. #3
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    "The Delbhna Nuadat were lords of a large section of what is now Athlone in County Roscommon, situated between the Suca and Shannon rivers. A branch of the larger Delbhna population group, they were from the early historic era a subject people of the Ui Maine." This should be on the short list for the L1066 Central Irish cluster. I was previously leaning more towards the Soghain/Sogain however this actually seems a little bit more likely. It's far too early to prove anything but I just wanted to make sure this group is added to the conversation and future consideration. This is also somewhat in line with the surnames matching surnames of the Ui Maine, but the ydna not matching the bulk of those surnames under the main Ui Maine leadership. These would be families serving under the Ui Maine just as I think part of them served under the Eoganachta.

    It appears there were at least 8 branches of the main Delbhna, which could also possibly explain the diversity of L1066 and finally, I believe there is also a historical link to the Dalcassians (L226), who like L1066 are under Z2534.

    I think we may have a front runner here for the Central Irish L1066 cluster but again, I only submit this for discussion/debate/research because it's all speculation at this time.

  5. #4
    Continuing to research the L1066 Central Irish cluster, looking at the possible date for the MRCA of this cluster, it appears to be around 1100- 1250 AD (not the much earlier date proposed by a different source) which would possibly support the arrival during the Strongbow invasion, but not to say it couldn't have occurred at some other time. There also is a case building that the TRUE origin for the Curley surname, or one branch of the Curley group is from Brittany, possibly from the commune of Corlay itself. I'm also giving a good look at the Curiosolitae tribe as a possible origin for this group, but perhaps it could encompass more than L1066 cluster, no idea there. So, perhaps the TRUE surname origin for the L1066 Curley group is from Corlay Brittany and the Curiosolitae tribe, possible Bretons that later returned to the isles. The evidence is beginning to support the true Curley surname origin in Ireland for at least one group.

  6. #5
    Neah, probably can scratch this off the list now, doesn't seem to be lining up very well with new research results..
    Quote Originally Posted by AncientCelt View Post
    "The Delbhna Nuadat were lords of a large section of what is now Athlone in County Roscommon, situated between the Suca and Shannon rivers. A branch of the larger Delbhna population group, they were from the early historic era a subject people of the Ui Maine." This should be on the short list for the L1066 Central Irish cluster. I was previously leaning more towards the Soghain/Sogain however this actually seems a little bit more likely. It's far too early to prove anything but I just wanted to make sure this group is added to the conversation and future consideration. This is also somewhat in line with the surnames matching surnames of the Ui Maine, but the ydna not matching the bulk of those surnames under the main Ui Maine leadership. These would be families serving under the Ui Maine just as I think part of them served under the Eoganachta.

    It appears there were at least 8 branches of the main Delbhna, which could also possibly explain the diversity of L1066 and finally, I believe there is also a historical link to the Dalcassians (L226), who like L1066 are under Z2534.

    I think we may have a front runner here for the Central Irish L1066 cluster but again, I only submit this for discussion/debate/research because it's all speculation at this time.

  7. #6
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    I'm in A17 (formerly known as Z253-1716-11 cluster) not L1066, but A17 also looks like central Ireland origins. Can you share your methodology for calculating the MRCA? It would be great if we could do a similar calculation for A17.

  8. #7
    I'm not using any complex method to calculate the TMRCA for the group, simply using the tip report in conjunction among the various cluster members and also the known distance from paper documentation from others who are verified more recent. It looks to be in the 1100 AD range for the cluster so far.

    I'm using complex proprietary algorithms that I may patent at a later date..
    Last edited by SearchSeeker; 02-02-2015 at 04:42 PM.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by IrishMorgan View Post
    I'm in A17 (formerly known as Z253-1716-11 cluster) not L1066, but A17 also looks like central Ireland origins. Can you share your methodology for calculating the MRCA? It would be great if we could do a similar calculation for A17.
    Welcome to the forum, I see it's your first post..

  10. #9
    I like this utility below, it was dead on for calculating someone with a known TMRCA. Using a 65% probability rate at 67 markers among 5 subjects, the TMRCA is 870 years, or 1144 AD. Add in a little variance just to be safe and we're in the 1000 to 1250 AD range for this shared ancestor. Seems to fit pretty well with the Strongbow invasion or it could even go back to the main 1066 invasion. Based on this information, I'm shifting more towards a possible Breton coming back to the Isles and spawning these separate lineages of different surnames.

    Anyway, the utility is Dean McGee Y-Utility: Y-DNA Comparison Utility, FTDNA Mode. I know it has a last modified date of 2008 at the bottom of the page but it appears to be pretty solid at least it works well for me.

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