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Thread: Any Crimean Karaite samples?

  1. #1
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    Any Crimean Karaite samples?

    Crimean Karaites are very small in number, but I would very much like to see their autosomal profile. During WW2 they claimed they were Khazars to avoid the Holocaust, but I would actually like to see if there is any unintentional truth to this.

    It would also be interesting to see how much admixture in general they have. If I remember correctly, Karaim were more against converts than Rabbinic Jews were. However, the Karaite world used to be much larger in the Middle Ages.

    P.S. is it possible that Knaanim were Karaites? Iíve never heard anything contrary

  2. #2
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    There's this K13 sample:

    Code:
    Crimean_Karaite1,9.41,7.34,13.99,22.87,33,6.57,3.06,1.94,1.83,0,0,0,0
    
    Crimean_Karaite1_K13_sim,0.1095,0.1223,-0.0247,-0.0459,-0.0125,-0.0108,0.0036,-0.004,-0.0108,0.0055,-0.0004,0.0003,0.0044,-0.0008,-0.0087,0.0079,0.0064,0.0009,-0.0004,-0.0026,0.0001,0,-0.0009,-0.0013,-0.0006
    Code:
    Distance to:	Crimean_Karaite1
    8.92481933	Turkish_Westcentral
    9.07588563	Greek_Central_Anatolia
    9.63158865	Turkish_Eastcentral
    9.75383514	Cypriot_Turkish
    10.24736552	Greek_Islands
    10.26865619	Alawite
    11.04884609	Turkish_South
    11.62809099	Lebanese_Muslim
    12.09610268	Turkish
    12.61366323	Turkish_Northwest
    12.87388442	Turkish_Central-Black_Sea
    13.16037234	Syrian
    13.40900444	Turkish_Southeast
    13.74735611	Iraqi
    13.82985539	Maltese
    14.16677098	Greek_West_Anatolia
    14.69160304	Turkish_Crete
    14.95182932	Turkish_East
    15.23302990	Jew_Sephardi
    15.43062863	Jew_Ashkenazi
    15.53823671	Italian_South
    15.60790184	Assyrian_West
    15.81798028	Assyrian_South
    15.96287568	Azerbaijani_Azerbaijan
    15.98950906	Assyrian_North
    
    Distance to:	Crimean_Karaite1
    8.30692482	Greek_Kos
    8.53130705	Greek_Konya
    8.53503954	Greek_Karpathos
    8.74881135	Greek_Dodecanese
    8.92481933	Turkish_Westcentral
    9.08186655	Greek_Chios
    9.15142612	Greek_Crete
    9.52007878	Greek_Lesbos
    9.55647948	Greek_Kalymnos
    9.63158865	Turkish_Eastcentral
    9.75383514	Cypriot_Turkish
    9.96751223	Greek_Cappadocia
    10.29051019	Greek_Nisyros
    10.61217697	Greek_Symi
    10.65819403	Greek_Kastellorizo
    10.85117505	Greek_Ikaria
    11.04884609	Turkish_South
    11.19934373	Greek_Rhodes
    11.39238781	Greek_Kythera
    12.50072798	Cypriot_Greek
    12.61366323	Turkish_Northwest
    12.74641910	Greek_Deep_Mani
    12.77933097	Greek_Cyprus
    12.87388442	Turkish_Central-Black_Sea
    13.00632538	Italian_Calabria
    (another K13 spreadsheet with more European samples)
    
    Distance to:	Crimean_Karaite1_K13_sim
    0.03674247	Greek_Central_Anatolia
    0.03686899	Greek_Dodecanese
    0.03745756	Greek_Crete
    0.03805804	Greek_Cappadocia
    0.03887747	Sephardic_Jew_o
    0.03987836	Turkish_East-Central
    0.04124924	Turkish_West-Central
    0.04189445	Ashkenazi_Jew
    0.04228787	Turkish_Cypriot
    0.04370325	Turkish_Dodecanese
    0.04399201	Alawite_Turkey
    0.04425019	Greek_Phokaia
    0.04438066	Greek_Cyprus
    0.04559156	Turkish_East
    0.04676103	Syrian_Jew
    0.04694408	Greek_Smyrna
    0.04702845	Georgian_Jew
    0.04779999	Italian_Calabria
    0.04832529	Armenian_West
    0.04895394	Italian_Campania
    0.04896588	Armenian_Syunik
    0.04911041	Bukharian_Jew
    0.04914328	Italian_Basilicata
    0.04938124	Romaniote_Jew
    0.04948692	Mountain_Jew_o
    Code:
    Target: Crimean_Karaite1_K13_sim
    Distance: 1.4594% / 0.01459405
    30.6	Greeks_Pre-Slavic_Migrations
    28.6	Circassian_MA
    27.4	Southern_Levant_BA
    6.6	Slavic_MA
    5.0	Collegno-Szolad_A
    1.8	Turkic_MA

  3. #3
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    I'm not aware of any Crimean Karaite G25 sample, but there's a little bit of discussion in these two threads:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....raites-Tatars)
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....rimean-Karaite

    To my knowledge, the Karaite claim of "Khazar" roots dates not to the Holocaust but to nineteenth-century attempts by some members to better integrate in Russian society by distancing themselves from Rabbinic Judaism (https://yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/karaites). I'm not sure how they claimed to be able to reconcile this with the fact that those Khazars who did convert to Judaism (and there is very scarce evidence regarding the nature and extent of Judaism within that multi-faith and multi-ethnic state) converted to Rabbinic Judaism and not Karaism. Were they supposed to have "seen the light" and embraced Karaism? From the very little we know of the Khazars, evidence of their Judaism is pretty much restricted to the space of a single century (the 10th) after which the vast majority may very well have converted to Islam (which was already present alongside other faiths) (https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/h...hapira-khazars). According to Daniel J. Lasker (Karaism, p. 68) the first recorded reference to a Karaite community in Crimea dates to 1278, with a likely Karaite synagogue being built shortly after the first local mosque in the 1260s, and it is thought that the Karaites followed the Muslims into Crimea in the period of the Mongol conquests.

    And Knaanim were not Karaites, they were rabbinic Jews.

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  5. #4
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    There's this sample:


    Code:
    Karaite_Crimea,0.10564,0.12224,-0.02622,-0.046,-0.01288,-0.01564,0.00138,-0.00346,-0.0126,0.00432,0.00496,0.00204,0.00072,-0.00252,-0.00834,0.00192,0.00428,0.00132,0.00062,-0.00356,-0.00134,0.00154,-0.00086,0.00062,0.00232

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    I'm not aware of any Crimean Karaite G25 sample, but there's a little bit of discussion in these two threads:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....raites-Tatars)
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....rimean-Karaite

    To my knowledge, the Karaite claim of "Khazar" roots dates not to the Holocaust but to nineteenth-century attempts by some members to better integrate in Russian society by distancing themselves from Rabbinic Judaism (https://yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/karaites). I'm not sure how they claimed to be able to reconcile this with the fact that those Khazars who did convert to Judaism (and there is very scarce evidence regarding the nature and extent of Judaism within that multi-faith and multi-ethnic state) converted to Rabbinic Judaism and not Karaism. Were they supposed to have "seen the light" and embraced Karaism? From the very little we know of the Khazars, evidence of their Judaism is pretty much restricted to the space of a single century (the 10th) after which the vast majority may very well have converted to Islam (which was already present alongside other faiths) (https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/h...hapira-khazars). According to Daniel J. Lasker (Karaism, p. 68) the first recorded reference to a Karaite community in Crimea dates to 1278, with a likely Karaite synagogue being built shortly after the first local mosque in the 1260s, and it is thought that the Karaites followed the Muslims into Crimea in the period of the Mongol conquests.

    And Knaanim were not Karaites, they were rabbinic Jews.
    Petachiah of Regensburg (late 12th - early 13th century) mentions Karaites in Crimea, though a distinction is made between Khazaria and Crimea ("Kedar").

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  9. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by DudeTheDud View Post
    There's this sample:


    Code:
    Karaite_Crimea,0.10564,0.12224,-0.02622,-0.046,-0.01288,-0.01564,0.00138,-0.00346,-0.0126,0.00432,0.00496,0.00204,0.00072,-0.00252,-0.00834,0.00192,0.00428,0.00132,0.00062,-0.00356,-0.00134,0.00154,-0.00086,0.00062,0.00232
    Where did this come from?

  10. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Where did this come from?
    Sorry this is a sim as well. It's from here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ine-s-Day-Gift

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  12. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DudeTheDud View Post
    Sorry this is a sim as well. It's from here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ine-s-Day-Gift
    Aha, good catch. I'd forgotten to check there.

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    United States San Francisco Adal Sultanate
    Deleted.
    Last edited by Freb; 10-05-2022 at 04:04 PM.

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