Page 42 of 63 FirstFirst ... 32404142434452 ... LastLast
Results 411 to 420 of 624

Thread: Impact of invasions and/or settlements in the Iberian Peninsula

  1. #411
    Registered Users
    Posts
    410
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodilkas View Post
    If you are trying to find out the impact of the muslim invasions in Spain, then the first thing you have to do is understand that;

    1-There is a very ancient north African ancestral component in all of Europe

    2-This component can be evaluated taking into account the results of contemporary populations comparing those countries that have suffered invasions and those in which they have not occurred.

    3-In this way, we can observe a very small BASAL NA percentage in Bulgaria (1,40)<France (1,44)<Tuscany (2,39). I f we consider rhst 2,39 in Tuscany as the basal percentage, the excess up to 4,40 in Spain i.e 2.01, is the percentage that could be attributed to extra population movements from north Africa to Spain during the Roman Empire and 711 AD. That percentage IMHO is insignificant and already existed in ancient samples from the Betica and Lusitania durong the Roman Empires so the impact of the conquest (711AD) is practically non existent.

    4-Another component that could be involved is Arabian-Morocco (13,87)>Tuscany (8,24)>Sardinia (7,37)>Bulgaria (6,88)>Spain (3,06)>France (2,25) which is evidently related to Natufians and Levant_Neolithic

    5-Western Asia (Levant & Anatolia)-Tuscany (28,17)>Bulgaria (26,06)>Sardinia (23,75)>Spain (14,53)>France (12,42)>Morocco (0,90)

    6- For those who are interested in the Levantine markers in Spain, everyone can see that the sum of Western_Asia and Arab is- Tuscany (36,41)>Bulgaria (32,94), while Spain (17,59) has much lower levels similar to the French ones (14,67) and half than Tuscany or Bulgaria. Geography is very important in genetics and explains why the Levantine markers in Spain and France are so small.
    The distance between Europe, North Africa and the Near East is interesting but we are also talking about the self-sufficient component, that is, because Iberia is divided West - East and if that had to do with the Islamic invasion, since at least looking at the papers there is not much difference in Regions like Valencia or Andalusia pre and durint islamic times except for the samples from Granada

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...14-1492%29.svg

    https://www.zupimages.net/up/19/12/3lt4.jpg

    https://i.postimg.cc/BQMsmwkB/modelo-olalde-2.png

    https://www.academia.edu/61630332/La...rary_structure

    https://html.scribdassets.com/72vgo6...f7e4a6a6b2.jpg

    https://i.ibb.co/S6ptng7/3.jpg

    https://i.ibb.co/RjHz8SC/4.jpg

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to lorddraco14 For This Useful Post:

     Aben Aboo (12-01-2022)

  3. #412
    Registered Users
    Posts
    6,997
    Sex
    Location
    Australia
    Ethnicity
    Italian Alpine
    Nationality
    Australian and Italian
    Y-DNA (P)
    T1a2 - Y79536
    mtDNA (M)
    H95a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-S8172
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b17

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Italy Ladinia Republic of Venice
    Quote Originally Posted by lorddraco14 View Post
    Do you mean Iberia or Italy? If you mean the first, at least the Carthaginians seem to have left a considerable impact, since the Bronze Age Southeast Iberian sampels show an average Nafr of 1% while the Roman and medieval average reaches 20%. If you are referring to the second case, I understand that West Sicily and Cantabria are the 2 areas of Italy with the most Nafr, so there may be a combination of both towns, but then the question comes to me ¿ How many Nafr do the 2 areas mentioned ?
    Carthaginians ( only lasted from 806 to 140BC , modern Tunisia ) and Numidians ( modern Algeria ) where both in Cadiz ( southern spain ) under the umbrella of Phoenicians.

    What to you want to only include ?


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+, SK1480+, Y79536+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna

  4. #413
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    4,914
    Sex
    Location
    Vissaiom
    Ethnicity
    Portuguese highlander
    aDNA Match (1st)
    Romano-Lusitanian:Miroiço_R10500
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    Lusitanian:Conimbriga_R10488
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-Y31991>FT17866
    mtDNA (M)
    H20 (xH20a)

    Asturias Galicia Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ PortugalRoyalFlag1830
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    It depends, as always, on which populations are used.

    0.00924177 Spanish_Extremadura = 90% Spanish_Peri-Barcelona + 10% Moroccan_North

    I get 10% NA because Peri-Barcelona already has some Taforalt, but when I remove Spanish references, I get 15% NA in both scaled and unscaled coordinates instead.

    Scaled

    Target: Spanish_Extremadura
    Distance: 0.0099% / 0.00992506 | R3P
    43.9 French_Chalosse
    41.5 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    14.6 Berber_Tunisia_Chen

    Unscaled

    Target: Spanish_Extremadura
    Distance: 0.0040% / 0.00403609 | R3P
    56.4 French_Chalosse
    27.4 Italian_Northeast
    16.2 Tunisian_Berber_Tamezret

    Eurogenes K15 also shows a similar figure.

    Target: Spanish_Extremadura
    Distance: 1.6011% / 1.60112585 | R3P
    47.4 French_Provence_outlier
    42.0 French_Southwest
    10.6 Moroccan

    Target: Spanish_Extremadura
    Distance: 1.7698% / 1.76976134 | R3P
    43.6 French_Southwest
    38.8 Italy_Aostavalley
    17.6 Algerian
    Because it's mandatory to use a penalty with unscaled data, and the one from Vahaduo simply doesn't do the job well. If you try it in nMonte3 you'll get different results and lower North African. But the figure isn't even from G25, it's from genetics studies.
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.497"
    Ruderico

    Galaico-Lusitanian,72.2
    Berber_IA_EMA,9.6
    Briton_IA,9.2
    Roman_Colonial,9

    RY'N NI YMA O HYD!

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ruderico For This Useful Post:

     Aben Aboo (12-01-2022),  Gentica277282 (11-30-2022)

  6. #414
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,934
    Ethnicity
    Arab

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Because it's mandatory to use a penalty with unscaled data, and the one from Vahaduo simply doesn't do the job well. If you try it in nMonte3 you'll get different results and lower North African. But the figure isn't even from G25, it's from genetics studies.
    Was the creator of nMonte talking about an update

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Gentica277282 For This Useful Post:

     Aben Aboo (12-01-2022),  capsian (11-30-2022)

  8. #415
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,946
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Because it's mandatory to use a penalty with unscaled data, and the one from Vahaduo simply doesn't do the job well. If you try it in nMonte3 you'll get different results and lower North African.

    But the figure isn't even from G25, it's from genetics studies.
    I guess you are referring to this study and this figure:

    Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08272-w

    Ok, but the choice of populations also plays a key part in the models. For instance, what does exactly "France" include? What about "Italy1," "Italy2"? Because choosing one population over another can affect the outcome quite a bit.


  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ajeje Brazorf For This Useful Post:

     Aben Aboo (12-01-2022),  Cascio (12-01-2022)

  10. #416
    Registered Users
    Posts
    410
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Carthaginians ( only lasted from 806 to 140BC , modern Tunisia ) and Numidians ( modern Algeria ) where both in Cadiz ( southern spain ) under the umbrella of Phoenicians.

    What to you want to only include ?
    I don't understand you, Carthage also came to control West Iberia and if you see the samples, the Iberian samples from the Bronze Age have a minimum Nafr and in the Iron Age there was a great change.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...age_323_BC.png

    https://www.zupimages.net/up/19/12/3lt4.jpg

  11. #417
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    4,914
    Sex
    Location
    Vissaiom
    Ethnicity
    Portuguese highlander
    aDNA Match (1st)
    Romano-Lusitanian:Miroiço_R10500
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    Lusitanian:Conimbriga_R10488
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-Y31991>FT17866
    mtDNA (M)
    H20 (xH20a)

    Asturias Galicia Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ PortugalRoyalFlag1830
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    I guess you are referring to this study and this figure:

    Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08272-w

    Ok, but the choice of populations also plays a key part in the models. For instance, what does exactly "France" include? What about "Italy1," "Italy2"? Because choosing one population over another can affect the outcome quite a bit.

    Sure, "France" is a bit dubious, but appears Basque-like, "Italy1" is from southern Italy, and "Italy2" from the north. The only reference that includes some relevant IBM ancestry is NorthMorocco so there's not much room for the model to vary in this specific component, unlike others.

    There's another study, which I can't remember, that showed similar figures.



    Iirc the Corsican study also gave a maximum of ~10% North African in Iberia in their models, the cluster included all Portuguese and a few Spanish (I guess mostly Galicians).
    There isn't 15-16% North African-related ancestry in western Spain, nor in Portugal, those figures are too high and G25 scaled bottles it. The only way to get such a figure is by using a NA reference that's very East Med shifted, but in that case the remaining southeastern-related ancestry will be even smaller because it will be partially captured by the NA one.
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.497"
    Ruderico

    Galaico-Lusitanian,72.2
    Berber_IA_EMA,9.6
    Briton_IA,9.2
    Roman_Colonial,9

    RY'N NI YMA O HYD!

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Ruderico For This Useful Post:

     Aben Aboo (12-01-2022)

  13. #418
    Banned
    Posts
    217
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF27

    Castile and León Spanish Empire (1506-1701)
    Quote Originally Posted by lorddraco14 View Post
    The distance between Europe, North Africa and the Near East is interesting but we are also talking about the self-sufficient component, that is, because Iberia is divided West - East and if that had to do with the Islamic invasion, since at least looking at the papers there is not much difference in Regions like Valencia or Andalusia pre and durint islamic times except for the samples from Granada

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...14-1492%29.svg

    https://www.zupimages.net/up/19/12/3lt4.jpg

    https://i.postimg.cc/BQMsmwkB/modelo-olalde-2.png

    https://www.academia.edu/61630332/La...rary_structure

    https://html.scribdassets.com/72vgo6...f7e4a6a6b2.jpg

    https://i.ibb.co/S6ptng7/3.jpg

    https://i.ibb.co/RjHz8SC/4.jpg
    1-What is "self sufficent component"- I hardly ever understand what you are saying.

    2-Neither you nor anyone else has any idea of the genetic composition of southeastern Iberia before or post-islamic conquest, because we only have 20 SAMPLES from a population of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

    3-The samples chosen by Olalde belong to selected islamic cemeteries and therefore cannot tell you ANYTHING about the genetic composition of Roman or Muslim Hispania. The only thing you can do is speculate about a topic we dont know about, until we have MANY MORE SAMPLES

    4-I dont know if you will understand, but I will try to explain it. IF Jewish cemeteries are analyzed in the future, probably 100% levantine samples will appear, IF Islamic cemeteries are analyzed, samples similar to berbers will probably appear, and IF christian cemeteries are analyzed 100% european samples will appear, but the important thing is the final result , that is to say, insignificant % of NA blood in Spain. What else it matter to you to know if an islamic sample from Murcia has 15% NA, if other samples has Zero and if in addition that component has been diluted until reaching the minimum levels of contemporary Murcians

    5-If you are interested in the role played by the Carthaginians in Spain, the first thing you have to do is STUDY our history well and not talk nonsense about thier presence in Iberia. The Carthaginians only maintained few and small colonies and trading factories founded by the phoenicians in southern Iberia. After the battle of Alalia (537 BC), the Carthaginians controlled trade in the western Mediterranean and ONLY after the loss of Sicily (First Punic War), Amilcar Barca began the conquest of Hispania (237 BC), and as evryone knows, the Carthaginians were resoundingly defeated in the battle of Ilipa (206 BC) and returned to Africa, where they were again defeated and Carthage devastated.

    6-The Carthaginians traded with the Tartesios-Turdetanos but NEVER conquered western, southwestern, or central Iberia. Their domain of the peninsular southeast lasted EXACTLY 30 YEARS (236-206 BC).

    7- I have already said many times that their influence on Iberian genetics (outside of their colonies and the adjacent iberian villages) was ZERO.

    8-In ALL the Iberian Bronze age cultures (we have more than 200 samples) there is only one outlier with a small NA percentage at a site in Lorca, Murcia (Zapaterias)

    9-What big change was there in the Iberian Iron Age?????????- The Iron Age Iberians are indistinguisable both in its autosomal composition an in its uniparental markers from their ancestors- Argar, Cogotas, Valencian and Atlantic Bronze Age cultures, and th is in turn are indistinguishable from their Bell Beaker culture ancestors. We have many Iberian samples from the Iron Age in the Mediterranean and some Iron Age samples in the north. There is NOT the slighest sign of Carthaginian, levantine or north african genetic influence in any of them. NOT even a single outlier as happens for example in Etruria or Lazio

    10-The Hispano-Roman samples are very heterogeneus and also very SCARCE, we only have a few from the Tarraconense (ZERO NA admixture), from Lusitania (NA between 1-2% in Conimbriga up to an 18% outlier in Miroico) and in Betica (up to 10%), but the existence of samples practically IDENTICAL to many contemporary Spanish populations makes me think that the genetic influence of the 711 conquest was also ZERO.

    11-I know that regardless of what I tell you, you will continue to insist in the subject, sending the same links that EVERYONE knows and asking the same questions, but at least I tried

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Bodilkas For This Useful Post:

     hantrolugharsts (12-01-2022)

  15. #419
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,934
    Ethnicity
    Arab

    I think the issue is we are measuring ibm ancestry only to tell how much North African a population has which is wrong

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Gentica277282 For This Useful Post:

     hantrolugharsts (12-01-2022)

  17. #420
    Banned
    Posts
    217
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF27

    Castile and León Spanish Empire (1506-1701)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    I guess you are referring to this study and this figure:

    Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08272-w

    Ok, but the choice of populations also plays a key part in the models. For instance, what does exactly "France" include? What about "Italy1," "Italy2"? Because choosing one population over another can affect the outcome quite a bit.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...08.12.455263v1

    I have already said on other occasions, this supossed north African ancestry is not exclusive to the Portuguese and Spaniards, but common to all Europe, you should ask yourself why G25 does not detect it.

    If you trust Globetrotter you may be familar with this paper above (Wangkumhang Hellenthal, 2.021)

    FastGlobetrotter-Europe- 36 clusters had >50 individuals, a single inferred admixture date, and 3-36% inferred ancestry from sources related to Central-West Asia, NORTH AFRICA and/or Sub-Saharan Africa, along with inferred ancestry related to southern Europe.

    Among these 36, THE HIGHEST DEGREES >20% of inferred ancestry related to WEST ASIANS, and NORTH-SUBSAHARAN AFRICANS are founded in 3 clusters that predominantly consist of ITALIANS, with inferred dates covering a broad range spanning 1000-1500 years ago.

    Interestingly, 7 of these 36 clusters, consisting of BELGIANS, FRENCH and GERMANS (clusters C44, C46, C47, C52-C55) have similar inferred amounts (5-12%) of ancestry related to NORTH AFRICAN and WEST ASIAN (Armenia, Morocco, Turkey) sources and similar admixture dates of 300-700 CE."

Page 42 of 63 FirstFirst ... 32404142434452 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Impact of invasions of Great Britain and Ireland
    By lorddraco14 in forum Western
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 09-07-2022, 07:30 AM
  2. K1a in the Iberian Peninsula
    By estesiquesabe in forum K
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-23-2020, 07:46 PM
  3. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-31-2019, 12:42 AM
  4. Haplogroup L in the Iberian Peninsula
    By E_M81_I3A in forum L
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 04-29-2019, 10:54 AM
  5. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-13-2017, 10:59 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •