Impact of invasions and/or settlements in the Iberian Peninsula

[RCO]

We can easily measure the Germanic and Baltic components in populations or individuals. I have a great grandfather from Eastern Germany and I have a bigger Germanic or Baltic component than any modern Iberian, I think when the Suebi arrived in NW Iberia they changed the local population ingredient as they were creating a new local admixed population.

[lorddraco14]

I don't think they chose good populations to be honest, having both south and north Italians in addition to "French" (whichever part of France they're from) leads to wonky models, it's my one big issue with that study. Fortunately North Moroccans are completely different from the others, so that figure isn't surprising. There's another study that used a simpler model, but the North Euro influence pattern can still be seen: higher in Galicia and the Algarve, lower in Spain: https://i.imgur.com/6pUv1eW.png


The "Andalusian" (red) one has SSA that the "Galician" (yellow) ones does not. Presumably red would be more common in southern Portugal than in the north, if a Portuguese has recent SSA odds are they'd be in the red cluster.

In yet another study you can kind of see residual SSA more frequently in the Lisbon group than in Porto or Galicia https://i.imgur.com/mFob37g.png
Edit: The blue components (dark higher in Finland, light higher in CEU) are also generally higher in Portugal and Galicia than in most of Spain. Even the old Eurogenes K13 and K15 suggested this, which is why I still value them.

How reliable are the Moroccan nort for the Nafr ancestry in Iberia ? I have seen that they use the Riffians a lot for models but what about other Maghreb peoples with contact with Iberia as is the case of Carthaginians and Numidians who correspond to modern day Tunisia and Algeria

[Ruderico]

How reliable are the Moroccan nort for the Nafr ancestry in Iberia ?

Didn't you already ask this in the past? I get the feeling you ask the same things over and over again.

No one really knows, but we need to use a reference so there you go.

[Hrodric]

Yep, good to know you're part of the gang That's precisely why I chose this nickname, in my naivety back in 2016 I thought this meant we all had an ancestor named "Roderic" or something like that - I took this spelling from El Cid's own personal name - after whom every one of us got this surname from..clearly it's not that simple, but now I can't change the nickname so whatever.


I think in your case that is very likely it had a Germanic origin, too bad you also drew the short end of the stick and got a rare haplogroup in the DNA lottery

It's a bit sad that our surname doesn't necessarily indicate a germanic origin. My "son of Roderic" only appeared with my 8th great-grandfather (b. 1701). His father's surname was "son of Gonçalo" aka Gonçalves... and his grandfather was that guy that you can see down below (João Francisco)... back then these minhoto farmers didn't really care about surnames

[Ruderico]

It's a bit sad that our surname doesn't necessarily indicate a germanic origin. My "son of Roderic" only appeared with my 8th great-grandfather (b. 1701). His father's surname was "son of Gonçalo" aka Gonçalves... and his grandfather was that guy that you can see down below (João Francisco)... back then these minhoto farmers didn't really care about surnames

Yeah I don't think commoners cared about surnames at all in the past, inheritance occasionally seems a bit random. I have ancestors who took theirs from mothers, grandparents, and godparents, let alone surnames that sprung randomly from one's nickname, or place of origin - I have a few male Rainhas which I found hilarious until I found it's a little hamlet on the other side of the river valley. Imagine being a big burly man who's referred to as "queen". So far my male ancestors all have the same surname, but it's inevitable it'll change sooner or later, my mother's male line is on their third surname at the moment and I bet I'd find more if I had patience to go through the mixed records, but I don't have the will and patience to do that at the moment.

[mokordo]

It's a bit sad that our surname doesn't necessarily indicate a germanic origin. My "son of Roderic" only appeared with my 8th great-grandfather (b. 1701). His father's surname was "son of Gonçalo" aka Gonçalves... and his grandfather was that guy that you can see down below (João Francisco)... back then these minhoto farmers didn't really care about surnames

In the case of Spain, at least in what I have seen in my ancestors, there are no abrupt changes of surnames in the main paternal line (at least since the universal and obligatory parish registers established in the Council of Trent in mid-16th century)

I mean, there may be variations in the last name in the way of writing it, by mistake or fashion, but I don't know of any case of a change from a Rodríguez/Ruiz to a González/Gonzálvez.

Is it related to a certain Portuguese tradition of sometimes choosing the maternal surname as the first surname?

[Ruderico]

In the case of Spain, at least in what I have seen in my ancestors, there are no abrupt changes of surnames in the main paternal line (at least since the universal and obligatory parish registers established in the Council of Trent in mid-16th century)

I mean, there may be variations in the last name in the way of writing it, by mistake or fashion, but I don't know of any case of a change from a Rodríguez/Ruiz to a González/Gonzálvez.

Is it related to a certain Portuguese tradition of sometimes choosing the maternal surname as the first surname?

Probably not, inheriting a surname from a father was clearly the most common practice but by no means a rule around here. My mother's male line started as Vaz (short-form of Vasques), then Fernandes, and finally to it's current form which is a composite surname - one surname from the wife, the other from the husband (ironically not even his surname, but his 2nd personal name).

I think our gang member might be correct that farmers didn't place much importance on it, some 98-99% of my ancestors were farmers, day-labourers, and generally common folk. That said I suppose some surnames, which traditionally held more prestige in a certain area, might be more commonly passed down. My maternal grandmother took her surname from her mother (and thence from her maternal grandfather) but since Vasconcelos was/is a posh surname it seems to have been preserved until the earliest ancestor I found so far in Penafiel. Here where I live there's even a saying about such family names "Cabrais, Amarais e outros que tais" Amaral and Cabral being old rich families, my own paternal grandmother was Amaral herself.

[Hrodric]

Is it related to a certain Portuguese tradition of sometimes choosing the maternal surname as the first surname?

In this case, my 8th great-grandfather took the surname (Rodrigues) from his maternal grandfather (not his mother, because her surname was Vieira... I know, quite a mess).

From what I have seen by doing my own tree and by working on my parish records, sometimes we can find men and women taking their mother's surname instead of their father's surname. As Ruderico explained, the prestige and/or uniqueness of the maternal surname could be the reason behind this trend. But these cases were rare... at least for men. For girls/women, it was fairly common to take their mother's surname... why? I don't know.

[rober_tce]

How reliable are the Moroccan nort for the Nafr ancestry in Iberia ? I have seen that they use the Riffians a lot for models but what about other Maghreb peoples with contact with Iberia as is the case of Carthaginians and Numidians who correspond to modern day Tunisia and Algeria

You have already asked about this question in others discussions. By the moment, the samples prefered for it are “guanches” samples, but nobody knows really with total accuracy what is the most reliable sample. Please we shouldn’t come into a loop for a better quality of discussion and please stay on topic, thank you.

[rober_tce]

“Patronimical” names are very difficult to track, at least in Spain. Names like López indicate “son of Lope”, therefore there were many lineages with same name, without relationship between them.

Rodrigo, Ruderico, Fernando, Roberto, Alberto, Guillermo… all of them are common names with origin in germanic languages but nothing more. Same thing occurs with familiar names like Alcántara or Medina, both have arabic origin, but only by ethimology, don’t indicate a direct heritage with muslims.

Sadly traditional genealogy is very hard, requires much time and often economic resources for keep on an investigation deeper in all lineages.