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Thread: G-S10458 in North Africa

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignis90 View Post
    You have your own conclusions, I have my own.

    In any case, with the little we have, no modern Berber ressemble the profiles of Chalcolitic North African profile from Iberia or Sardinia, which aren't the ideal proxies since they aren't even in North Africa, but that's all we got.
    And Northeast European-like mtdna haplogroups are found even in the Souss. So I am pretty confident a Bronze Age European contribution is hard to avoid in any Berber population. Maybe isolated Zenagas may or may not have it.
    New modern and especially ancient samples will sort this out. In the mean time, I'll stick to my conclusions and I encourage anyone to have their own.
    Marriages between the north and south are common, even more do now so of course you’ll find an mtdna like that inthe souss. We can’t assume the southern berber ancestry profile came out of thin air
    With high coverage Guanche sample 011
    SUCCESS p=.985
    55 Guanche.SG_11
    32 Canaanite_MLBA
    13 COG_MatangaiTuru_IA

    SUCCESS p=.978
    50 Guanche.SG_11
    40 BedouinB.DG
    11 COG_MatangaiTuru_IA

    G25 results

    Target: Me
    Distance: 1.4691% / 0.01469064 | R5P
    52.8 Berber_MAR_TIZ
    21.2 Yemenite_Mahra
    17.8 Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos
    5.4 Yoruba
    2.8 Bulala





    R11109 MALE 1 CE 1749.5 400 CE ARCHAEOLOGY Isola_Sacra Y-DNA: J-Y15222 mtDNA: X2m'n

  2. #32
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    Can't be Ancient. There would've been a possibility for L497. But, this subclade is far deep into Europe.
    The subclade Z24311 clustering with NW Europeans further drives it.

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     Gentica277282 (10-03-2022)

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    there a sample from casablanca under G-L91
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-L166/

    and another north moroccan from tangier
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-Z31475/
    might be iberian origin

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Almodovar For This Useful Post:

     Gentica277282 (10-03-2022),  peloponnesian (10-06-2022)

  6. #34
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    L497 wouldn't have traveled directly from Anatolia to North Africa but rather (probably) through Central Europe (at least). Its earliest members likely lived in the Hungarian Plain and Upper and Middle Danube basin. One of the earliest confirmed L497 samples was found in southeast France in the Bell Beaker era (I10347). It's also been identified in Hallstatt and La Tène samples, and was just found in a Merovingian cemetery in Alt-Inden, Germany (one of the non-G Merovingian samples looks like it might have some North African ancestry) and an Anglo-Saxon-related cemetery in Copenhagen. However, L497 isn't as northern as some have suggested, although it was also found in Vikings and Insular Celts. Today it's more commonly found in Switzerland, France, southern Germany, and Italy (it's also in Etruscan samples and samples from Medieval and Renaissance Rome). There are a lot of possibilities for how it got to North Africa.
    Last edited by lehmannt; 10-04-2022 at 12:23 AM.
    Paper Trail: 37.5% England and Colonial America, 37.5% Ireland, 12.5% Sweden, 11% Alsace (distant Switzerland), 1.5% SW Germany

  7. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to lehmannt For This Useful Post:

     Aben Aboo (10-04-2022),  chocrafter (10-04-2022),  ZWQ (10-03-2022)

  8. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentica277282 View Post
    your father needs to test further for his subclade. 23 and me only gives our basic assignments for haplogroups

    Clearly in Algeria the women were much more open then Morocco considering the diverse parental haplogroups, I knew a Kabyle who had a ydna that was connected to Indians

    You have haplogroups that don’t even make sense in Algeria, at least in Morocco the majority are underneath E and the J assignments have an explanation.
    A higher diversity of Y-DNA in an ethnic group could suggest a lack of founder effects in that group especially when were talking about two similar ethnicities (algerians & moroccans) or one ethnicity was more effected by foreign migrants than the other. Not sure how the "openness" of women plays a role here. Also its known that Kabylia experienced a less intense E-M81 founder effect since European HG lineages like C-V20 can still be found there. Next time you should use an argument that makes more sense.

  9. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocrafter View Post
    A higher diversity of Y-DNA in an ethnic group could suggest a lack of founder effects in that group especially when were talking about two similar ethnicities (algerians & moroccans) or one ethnicity was more effected by foreign migrants than the other. Not sure how the "openness" of women plays a role here. Also its known that Kabylia experienced a less intense E-M81 founder effect since European HG lineages like C-V20 can still be found there. Next time you should use an argument that makes more sense.
    Nothing to do with ethnicity but terrain like I explained before the women were more likely open to marrying outside of Berber tribes than Morocco hence the higher diversity. Once again you are allowing your emotions to affect your judgement. Either way we know these haplogroups were brought over by foreign men, no arguments needed

    What we have is a higher concentration of Em81 in Morocco despite it being the smaller country, but I believe due to its position and terrain of Morocco it wasn’t as effected by foreign invasions

    I wouldn’t say Algerians and Moroccans are the same ethnicity some tribes share ethnic ties but most groups in Morocco are distinct

    You still have isolated tribes in Algeria like the mozabite

    Let’s take an isolated tribe in Algeria for example like the mozabites

    Genetics. Mozabite people are characterized by a very high level of North African haplogroups E1b1b1b (M81) (86%) and U6 (28%).

    Clearly other areas were more effected by trading routes and invasions
    Last edited by Gentica277282; 10-04-2022 at 09:02 PM.
    With high coverage Guanche sample 011
    SUCCESS p=.985
    55 Guanche.SG_11
    32 Canaanite_MLBA
    13 COG_MatangaiTuru_IA

    SUCCESS p=.978
    50 Guanche.SG_11
    40 BedouinB.DG
    11 COG_MatangaiTuru_IA

    G25 results

    Target: Me
    Distance: 1.4691% / 0.01469064 | R5P
    52.8 Berber_MAR_TIZ
    21.2 Yemenite_Mahra
    17.8 Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos
    5.4 Yoruba
    2.8 Bulala





    R11109 MALE 1 CE 1749.5 400 CE ARCHAEOLOGY Isola_Sacra Y-DNA: J-Y15222 mtDNA: X2m'n

  10. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocrafter View Post
    A higher diversity of Y-DNA in an ethnic group could suggest a lack of founder effects in that group especially when were talking about two similar ethnicities (algerians & moroccans) or one ethnicity was more effected by foreign migrants than the other. Not sure how the "openness" of women plays a role here. Also its known that Kabylia experienced a less intense E-M81 founder effect since European HG lineages like C-V20 can still be found there. Next time you should use an argument that makes more sense.
    Anyway it’s getting off topic if you have something to contribute go ahead if not then that’s the end of the conversation I have nothing else to add
    With high coverage Guanche sample 011
    SUCCESS p=.985
    55 Guanche.SG_11
    32 Canaanite_MLBA
    13 COG_MatangaiTuru_IA

    SUCCESS p=.978
    50 Guanche.SG_11
    40 BedouinB.DG
    11 COG_MatangaiTuru_IA

    G25 results

    Target: Me
    Distance: 1.4691% / 0.01469064 | R5P
    52.8 Berber_MAR_TIZ
    21.2 Yemenite_Mahra
    17.8 Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos
    5.4 Yoruba
    2.8 Bulala





    R11109 MALE 1 CE 1749.5 400 CE ARCHAEOLOGY Isola_Sacra Y-DNA: J-Y15222 mtDNA: X2m'n

  11. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentica277282 View Post
    Nothing to do with ethnicity but terrain like I explained before the women were more likely open to marrying outside of Berber tribes than Morocco hence the higher diversity. Once again you are allowing your emotions to affect your judgement. Either way we know these haplogroups were brought over by foreign men, no arguments needed

    What we have is a higher concentration of Em81 in Morocco despite it being the smaller country, but I believe due to its position and terrain of Morocco it wasn’t as effected by foreign invasions

    I wouldn’t say Algerians and Moroccans are the same ethnicity some tribes share ethnic ties but most groups in Morocco are distinct

    You still have isolated tribes in Algeria like the mozabite

    Let’s take an isolated tribe in Algeria for example like the mozabites

    Genetics. Mozabite people are characterized by a very high level of North African haplogroups E1b1b1b (M81) (86%) and U6 (28%).

    Clearly other areas were more effected by trading routes and invasions
    Firstly you‘re agreeing that Algeria was more affected by foreign invaders so why are you using the openness of women as an argument? Secondly in the same sentence you claim the terrain of Morocco is the reason and then you go on claiming Berber women from Algeria are just more open to marry outside their tribes. Thirdly you’re not addressing my argument.
    Once again you’re letting your political views affect your judgement.

  12. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocrafter View Post
    Firstly you‘re agreeing that Algeria was more affected by foreign invaders so why are you using the openness of women as an argument? Secondly in the same sentence you claim the terrain of Morocco is the reason and then you go on claiming Berber women from Algeria are just more open to marry outside their tribes. Thirdly you’re not addressing my argument.
    Once again you’re letting your political views affect your judgement.
    We wasn’t talking about anything political I think you are stuck on the wording of the openness like I said it’s a combination of things. I think you lack comprehension skills, read what I said properly and then come back. You are obviously emotional and this isn’t the place for a discussion like this.

    We’ve already established op fathers clade is European you’ve not added anything to the discussion. Focus on the subject on hand because I don’t know where you got the idea that it’s political

    I won’t be responding anymore so talk to your hearts content
    Last edited by Gentica277282; 10-04-2022 at 11:39 PM.
    With high coverage Guanche sample 011
    SUCCESS p=.985
    55 Guanche.SG_11
    32 Canaanite_MLBA
    13 COG_MatangaiTuru_IA

    SUCCESS p=.978
    50 Guanche.SG_11
    40 BedouinB.DG
    11 COG_MatangaiTuru_IA

    G25 results

    Target: Me
    Distance: 1.4691% / 0.01469064 | R5P
    52.8 Berber_MAR_TIZ
    21.2 Yemenite_Mahra
    17.8 Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos
    5.4 Yoruba
    2.8 Bulala





    R11109 MALE 1 CE 1749.5 400 CE ARCHAEOLOGY Isola_Sacra Y-DNA: J-Y15222 mtDNA: X2m'n

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