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Thread: Albanian Genetic Anthropology

  1. #1
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    Albanian Genetic Anthropology

    Hi guys, I decided to start this new thread since many relevant talks about Albanians are derailing other threads. Therefore, this will be the new thread going forward. I took the effort to collect some data from the Rrenjet public database. I was able to assign 1035 of 1463 samples to particular clades. I done this for your convenience and, hopefully, your benefit.





    "Other" represents samples which don't necessarily, or have yet to been sequenced enough for me to properly assign them to specific clades like I did for the rest. So for now, they will remain as 'Other'.

    Let's make this thread survive as long as possible through good discourse and civility.

    Also, feel free to mark or correct any possible errors. This spreadsheet is work in progress so I haven't refined everything, I only included clades which had 40+ samples.
    “To Maltsia e madhe I first turned my steps–not to see the mountains, but to see life, history, the world, and the great unknown, as it looks to the mountain man.”
    - Edith Durham

  2. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to excine For This Useful Post:

     Bruzmi (11-02-2022),  Karagjoz (11-01-2022),  Kelmendasi (11-02-2022),  Riverman (11-02-2022),  takerunder (11-02-2022),  Technocrat (11-05-2022),  vasil (11-01-2022)

  3. #2
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    Good work! Are you able to exclude minority results or put them on a separate table? Maybe try contacting rrenjet directly and ask them to provide you with the minority results?

    Also instead of PF5160 use L25? PF5160 goes all the way back to mesolithic
    Last edited by Karagjoz; 11-01-2022 at 07:55 PM.

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karagjoz View Post
    Good work! Are you able to exclude minority results or put them on a separate table? Maybe try contacting rrenjet directly and ask them to provide you with the minority results?

    In the event that I had, these percentages would be slightly higher; thank you for bringing this up. I will try to figure out something.


    I think for now though it's generally good for the overall picture.
    “To Maltsia e madhe I first turned my steps–not to see the mountains, but to see life, history, the world, and the great unknown, as it looks to the mountain man.”
    - Edith Durham

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     Karagjoz (11-01-2022)

  6. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karagjoz View Post
    Also instead of PF5160 use L25? PF5160 goes all the way back to mesolithic

    L25 in the search results yields 34 entries, PF5160 yields 41 entries, not really much of a difference tbh.
    “To Maltsia e madhe I first turned my steps–not to see the mountains, but to see life, history, the world, and the great unknown, as it looks to the mountain man.”
    - Edith Durham

  7. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by excine View Post
    L25 in the search results yields 34 entries, PF5160 yields 41 entries, not really much of a difference tbh.
    Up to you, another suggestion is maybe do a second table with percentages out of 1035 results since you are only using those in this study. Z2705 will be at nearly 20%
    Last edited by Karagjoz; 11-01-2022 at 09:38 PM.

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     excine (11-01-2022)

  9. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karagjoz View Post
    Up to you, another suggestion is maybe do a second table with percentages out of 1035 results since you are only using those in this study. Z2705 will be at nearly 20%
    Yes, I'm doing that as we speak
    “To Maltsia e madhe I first turned my steps–not to see the mountains, but to see life, history, the world, and the great unknown, as it looks to the mountain man.”
    - Edith Durham

  10. #7
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    Ok. Good idea. Let that other thread be. Can we talk about Albanian language here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karagjoz View Post
    J2b has yet to be found in yamnaya so it is difficult to claim that it is yamnaya line but yes more ancient dna will help determine that. The problem is it looks like illyrians may have been 90%+ j2b according to the ancient samples found so far, with that in mind and with the current hypothesis that illyrian was an indo european language these j2b illyrians may actually be direct descendents of tumulus culture if theyre not found in yamnaya. Unetice is unlikely as 4 samples have been found, 3 were i2 and 1 was r1b so yet again no j2b there

    Proto-Illyrians were R1b which is also a marker connected to the Steppes. J2b2 could of simply been picked up or hit a bottle neck at one point. It's an Y-DNA that is not really connected to the Steppes, Central Europe or any Indo European culture in general unless you take into consideration Maykop where J2b2 and R1b-L23 was found or some post Vucedol such as Cetina and Maros. Vucedol is connected to Yamnaya. R1b-Z2103 is connected to Yamnaya. Same E-V13 is not connected to the Steppes at all. Some other type of R1b might of come with some other cultures.


    Quote Originally Posted by Avraam Kyriakidis View Post
    I am not really sure if Illyrian and Messapic are coming from Yamnaya.Genetics of these people showing a northwest relation.They are in fact much closer to populations from Italy,Iberia and even central europe.If they come from Yamnaya that it means that J2b is also a Yamnaya marker.

    Also,Illyrian like i said is not well known if it’s satem or centum.The same exists for the Albanian.You saying the majority of linguistics agree it’s Satem.Okay fair enough.But when i am saying that many linguistics agree with the Dacian/Thracian connection that is disputed from you.One thing is clear that nothing is proven yet.

    You like the Illyrian-Messapic theory i do prefer the Dacian-Thracian.Anyway,let’s agree that we disagree and i hope ancient dna in the future to solve these questions!!!


    There is almost no linguist these days that holds Albanian to be Dacian or Thracian as you were explained. Most of the theories you talk about are either outdated or theories that have been debunked or challenged but you keep clinging onto them without much proof just like Serbs who keep clinging to the Bessi theory. I did not look at that other thread much or if you replied to me but I asked you if Albanian is Dacian or Thracian then why does it not match such

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...race_and_Dacia



    Many city names were composed of an initial lexical element affixed to -dava, -daua, -deva, -deba, -daba, or -dova, which meant "city" or "town" Endings on more southern regions are exclusively -bria ("town, city"), -disza, -diza, -dizos ("fortress, walled settlement"), -para, -paron, -pera, -phara ("town, village"). Strabo translated -bria as polis, but that may not be accurate.[4] Thracian -disza, -diza, and -dizos are derived from Proto-Indo-European *dheigh-, "to knead clay", hence to "make bricks", "build walls", "wall", "walls", and so on. These Thracian lexical items show a satemization of PIE *gh-. Cognates include Ancient Greek teichos ("wall, fort, fortified town", as in the town of Didymoteicho) and Avestan da?za ("wall").

    Can you explain what this means in Albanian and how come the Albanian language is not structured like this ? Since you claim Dacian/Thracian matches Albanian 100% ?

  11. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by excine View Post
    Hi guys, I decided to start this new thread since many relevant talks about Albanians are derailing other threads. Therefore, this will be the new thread going forward. I took the effort to collect some data from the Rrenjet public database. I was able to assign 1035 of 1463 samples to particular clades. I done this for your convenience and, hopefully, your benefit.





    "Other" represents samples which don't necessarily, or have yet to been sequenced enough for me to properly assign them to specific clades like I did for the rest. So for now, they will remain as 'Other'.

    Let's make this thread survive as long as possible through good discourse and civility.

    Also, feel free to mark or correct any possible errors. This spreadsheet is work in progress so I haven't refined everything, I only included clades which had 40+ samples.
    Thanks for making this thread,

    So far it looks like none of the E found in Bulgaria show any close relationship to some of these Albanian ones

  12. #9
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    0.02568326 ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690
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    0.02677144 HRV_Cetina_BA:I11843
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    0.02764658 MNE_LBA:I13777
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    According to this https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...-age-bulgaria/

    Some of these Thracians from older studies belong to https://www.yfull.com/arch-4.03/tree/E-Z1919/

    There are a bunch of other Y-DNA found among them.

  13. #10
    Has anyone taken a look at the Iron Age Slovenia samples yet? Archeologically, I pointed out that it is south of Vace, Slovenia which was an Illyrian territory back then. They seem to cluster with Croatian Iron Age samples which are clearly Illyrian.



    I'd also like to know if their R1b-clades are linked to any Albanians today.

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