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Thread: The "Non-Corded Ware" IEs: Is Catacomb C. an ancestor of Greco-Armenian (?Albanian) ?

  1. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nic View Post
    Why would anyone conclude that rs10967965 is not an indicator of a Southern European spread and that the ancient DNA shows the complete opposite, when no data has been presented for any Southern European samples?.
    The logic is as simple as it gets. if it were spread by Southern Indo-Europeans as you propose, it wouldn't show up in cultures that are older than Corded Ware and/or Yamnaya in places like Poland, Lithuania, or now Scotland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    ^^ Add to this the Scottish_Neolithic, 54 individuals, 13 possible carriers of the minor allele of rs10967965. And for fun, the modern Finns from 1kG (no imputation needed, no uncertainty at all), 99 individuals, 24 carriers (mostly heterozygote). Is there anything to draw from this stuff? My idea: no.
    Thank you.

    So (possible) reads were more prevalent in the Scottish Neolithic than in Corded Ware. What I'm wondering then is how an addition of Corded Ware derived DNA to Britain resulted in an increase in DNA in Britain such that now around 40% of those in the Isles carry rs10967965, whereas only 24% have it in the Finland that is close to the original Corded Ware zone.

    I do think you can draw information from DNA data. Does 25% of British alleles having rs10967965 and only 1% of Japanese alleles having it indicate nothing about where it developed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    The logic is as simple as it gets. if it were spread by Southern Indo-Europeans as you propose, it wouldn't show up in cultures that are older than Corded Ware and/or Yamnaya in places like Poland, Lithuania, or now Scotland.

    I don't propose that it was spread by Southern Indo-Europeans.
    What I'm proposing is that data indicates that the Indo-European DNA prevalent in modern Europeans was substantially of a type that developed in the Southern half of Europe.
    And it doesn't matter particularly that it existed in older cultures, as we have no data to indicate how old it is and still very limited data to show where it was in what frequencies at any given time and in which specific kind of allele it was present.

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    I think it is ultimately futile to track something as large as Indo-European migrations by a single allele. For instance, it was long thought the gene for lactase persistence was spread by Indo-Europeans, until it was detected in the Linear Pottery culture, which, of course, predates Indo-European expansion into Central and Western Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nic View Post
    I don't propose that it was spread by Southern Indo-Europeans.
    What I'm proposing is that data indicates that the Indo-European DNA prevalent in modern Europeans was substantially of a type that developed in the Southern half of Europe.
    And it doesn't matter particularly that it existed in older cultures, as we have no data to indicate how old it is and still very limited data to show where it was in what frequencies at any given time and in which specific kind of allele it was present.
    To quote you..."For example, at first sight, rs10967965-T on chromosome 9 looks an almost perfect proxy for Yamnayans.". Again, it can't be a proxy if was already widespread across Europe before Yamnaya even existed. And natural selection is "a thing", so no amount of modern data is going to wash away the older samples.

    Regarding your statement about ignoring ancient DNA and counting on modern diversity, I will give you a sobering reminder. About 12 years ago, scientists published a study (with a lot of fancy mathematical formulas) that asserted that modern R1b frequency in modern European males spread from Anatolia during the early Neolithic because modern diversity is highest in modern day Turkey. Fortunately we have ancient DNA that shows, unequivocally, that the last area to receive R-L23 was Anatolia (Armenians)!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nic View Post
    If Fataynovo may have brought both Indo-European language and rs10967965 into Southern Asia, this is how anyone might conclude that rs10967965 is an indicator of IE spread.
    Fatyanovo was in northern Russia, not Southern Europea. Autosomally the same thing, nothing to do with Southern Europe.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 11-30-2022 at 01:59 AM.
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    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nic View Post
    Thank you.

    So (possible) reads were more prevalent in the Scottish Neolithic than in Corded Ware. What I'm wondering then is how an addition of Corded Ware derived DNA to Britain resulted in an increase in DNA in Britain such that now around 40% of those in the Isles carry rs10967965, whereas only 24% have it in the Finland that is close to the original Corded Ware zone.

    I do think you can draw information from DNA data. Does 25% of British alleles having rs10967965 and only 1% of Japanese alleles having it indicate nothing about where it developed?
    40% or 25%? ALFA, quoting "UK 10K study-twins" gives 23% https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs10967965. But it's only a detail. Your obsession with dismissing the CWC from the spread of IE-linked DNA in western Europe is intriguing. If you were an Italian used to Eupedia chats I would understand more easily, but you're English (right?), therefore it cannot be a case of aDNA-pseudo-nationalism. My diagnosis is rather a problem of "methodologic monomania" . I agree with JoeyP37 and repeat: that doesn't hold water. Alright, I'll stop with that. I'm going to delete my "work/chromosome9" folder to make sure I don't succumb to curiosity to watch again. This thing only generates mirages, it's a waste of time and energy.
    Last edited by anglesqueville; 11-30-2022 at 08:38 AM.
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    Corded Ware or Non Corded Ware-Bell Beaker or Yamnaya-- Slovak samples?
    YamnayaHungary6location/cultural attribution unclear mean 2600
    YamnayaHungary7location/cultural attribution unclear mean 2530
    3418 and 3419?

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  11. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    I think it is ultimately futile to track something as large as Indo-European migrations by a single allele. For instance, it was long thought the gene for lactase persistence was spread by Indo-Europeans, until it was detected in the Linear Pottery culture, which, of course, predates Indo-European expansion into Central and Western Europe.
    I missed the discovery of LP genes in LBK samples, as far as I'm aware of the oldest samples with European LP genes date to the third millenium BC. Do you know which samples tested positive?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nic View Post
    I don't propose that it was spread by Southern Indo-Europeans.
    What I'm proposing is that data indicates that the Indo-European DNA prevalent in modern Europeans was substantially of a type that developed in the Southern half of Europe.
    And it doesn't matter particularly that it existed in older cultures, as we have no data to indicate how old it is and still very limited data to show where it was in what frequencies at any given time and in which specific kind of allele it was present.
    Do you think Slovakian R1b L51+, Polish Corded Ware L51+, and Afanasievo R1b L51+ samples share, rs10967965, and deletion at chr1:25592642-25661222, and phylogeny of Yersinia pestis?
    Stone Age Yersinia pestis genomes shed light on the early evolution, diversity, and ecology of plague
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35412864/
    https://mathii.github.io/2017/09/21/...ancient-europe


    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1942507897

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    To quote you..."For example, at first sight, rs10967965-T on chromosome 9 looks an almost perfect proxy for Yamnayans.". Again, it can't be a proxy if was already widespread across Europe before Yamnaya even existed.
    As you can see, I said "at first sight" - from looking at coloured admixture charts on the internet. I've no idea how reliable any of these charts are.

    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Regarding your statement about ignoring ancient DNA and counting on modern diversity, I will give you a sobering reminder. About 12 years ago, scientists published a study (with a lot of fancy mathematical formulas) that asserted that modern R1b frequency in modern European males spread from Anatolia during the early Neolithic because modern diversity is highest in modern day Turkey. Fortunately we have ancient DNA that shows, unequivocally, that the last area to receive R-L23 was Anatolia (Armenians)!
    Of course, I didn't say anything about 'ignoring' ancient DNA. I'm really not sure what there is to gain by repeatedly paraphrasing everything I say and twisting it into something I didn't say.

    And I really don't see how anyone can tell, unequivocally, when the first person with R-L23 arrived in Anatolia.

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