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Thread: The "Non-Corded Ware" IEs: Is Catacomb C. an ancestor of Greco-Armenian (?Albanian) ?

  1. #721
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post








    The finding of the first 4 J-L283 in final MBA/early LBA Peloponnese (all members of a single family) is strongly correlated to Cetina movements across the Adriatic and Ionian seas.


    Joseph Maran, Seaborne Contacts between the Aegean, the Balkans and the Central Mediterranean in the 3rd Millennium BC – The Unfolding of the Mediterranean World, 2007:




    The 4.2 ka Event and the End of the Maltese “Temple Period”:





    As R-PF7563 is found among southern Illyrians and it will be confirmed among Iapygians in Italy, who themselves are descendants of Cetina migrations, I believe that it is quite likely that the R-PF7563 in southern Peloponnese in the 11th century BCE reached the region with Cetina movements, several hundred years prior to this era.
    I would hypothesise that rs76185642-C (almost pure Balkanic sibling SNP to the Northern rs17696570-C) might have been a chromosome 9 equivalent of R-PF7563 or L-283. The aDNA of the people carrying them might have spread around Europe with Greeks, Celts, Romans etc., regardless of whether the paternal lines remained largely rooted to a few areas).

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  3. #722
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    All samples of rs76185642-C in the European database fall within rs10967965-T alleles, which we have seen were at a moderately high frequency in Neolithic Europe (particularly in the Pontic Steppe).

    rs76185642-C is rare (global population frequency 0.7%), and is spread between the Indian sub-continent and predominantly South Eastern Europe, with no samples in Africa, the Far East or North Eastern Europe.

    It is linked to a number of even rarer variants that appear to have derived from its allele, and that enable us to determine basal branches. Three of of these basal branches are specific to India, two have Indian and European samples, five are specific to South Eastern Europe and the remaining two are West European.

    Its spread into India parallels that of its sibling allele rs17696570-C, also derived from a rs10967965-T allele, and whose basal branches are wholly North European.

    Is there any more likely candidate than Catacomb or a Yamnayan ancestor of it in explaining rs76185642-C's spread pattern into South Eastern Europe and South Asia?

  4. #723
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    southwest Slav
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    analysis of Z2103 subclades:

    Afanasievo (Tocharians?):
    Z2103>M12149>FT406553
    Z2103>M12149>FTA29814
    Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2109>BY185688

    ancient Armenians:
    Z2103>M12149>PF331
    Z2103>M12149>Y13369
    Z2103>M12149>Z2106>CTS7763

    eastern Yamnaya (Caucasus, Urals):
    Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2109>KMS67

    Balkan and Pannonian post-Yamnaya groups: (incl. proto-Albanians?)
    Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2109>CTS7822
    Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2109>Y14416

    All these split from each other around 3400 BC, which is 100 years before the beggining of Yamnaya and Afanasievo (3300 BC).
    proto-Greeks aren't a part of this, since they seemingly had no Z2103.

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  6. #724
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    Quote Originally Posted by slavomir View Post
    analysis of Z2103 subclades:

    Afanasievo (Tocharians?):
    Z2103>M12149>FT406553
    Z2103>M12149>FTA29814
    Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2109>BY185688

    ancient Armenians:
    Z2103>M12149>PF331
    Z2103>M12149>Y13369
    Z2103>M12149>Z2106>CTS7763

    eastern Yamnaya (Caucasus, Urals):
    Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2109>KMS67

    Balkan and Pannonian post-Yamnaya groups: (incl. proto-Albanians?)
    Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2109>CTS7822
    Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2109>Y14416

    All these split from each other around 3400 BC, which is 100 years before the beggining of Yamnaya and Afanasievo (3300 BC).
    proto-Greeks aren't a part of this, since they seemingly had no Z2103.
    More BA/IA Balkan R-Z2103 results:

    BA Serbia:
    R1b-M269>Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2108
    R1b-M269>Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2108
    R1b-M269>Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2108>Z2110>CTS7556

    IA Albania:
    R1b-M269>Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2108>Z2110>CTS7556>FGC292 96>Y5592>CTS14150

    LBA North Macedonia:
    R1b-M269>Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2108>Z2110>CTS7556

    IA North Macedonia:
    R1b-M269>Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2108>Z2110>CTS7556>FGC292 96>Y5592>CTS14150

    The split between the Balkan Yamnaya (incl. Proto-Albanians), Proto-Armenians and Proto-Tocharians is somewhere slightly before or slightly after the Z2108 level

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  8. #725
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    Quote Originally Posted by slavomir View Post
    analysis of Z2103 subclades:

    Afanasievo (Tocharians?):
    Z2103>M12149>FT406553
    Z2103>M12149>FTA29814
    Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2109>BY185688

    ancient Armenians:
    Z2103>M12149>PF331
    Z2103>M12149>Y13369
    Z2103>M12149>Z2106>CTS7763

    eastern Yamnaya (Caucasus, Urals):
    Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2109>KMS67

    Balkan and Pannonian post-Yamnaya groups: (incl. proto-Albanians?)
    Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2109>CTS7822
    Z2103>M12149>Z2106>Z2109>Y14416

    All these split from each other around 3400 BC, which is 100 years before the beggining of Yamnaya and Afanasievo (3300 BC).
    proto-Greeks aren't a part of this, since they seemingly had no Z2103.

    The evidence shows that clean/splitting Language Tree models which can be mirrored in some single y-hg are inadequate, so people should stop trying to force the data into such

    As for the OP's theory, it’s obviously incorrect- there was no Catacomb intrusion into central Balkans, let alone Greece; whilst on the steppe Catacomb is a continuation of Yamnaya

    Proto-Armenians evidently derive from a western late Catacomb / KMK group
    Proto-Greeks on the other hand are from Balkan post-Yamnaya groups
    Last edited by Kunig; 01-21-2023 at 07:47 PM.

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