What is the difference between Iranic and Indic clades of R1a-Z2124?

[crawford]

I think we all know well that Y3>L657 is the Indo-Aryan branch, but are there any differences in Z94>Z2124> ? for Indics and Iranics? Since both groups seem to have this branch. Any regional differences in different kind of Iranics in Z2124+ ? (Persians, Pashtuns, Tajiks etc?)

[RCO]

They are not closely related and they had not the same source, they hadn't belonged to the same ancient ancestral population.

[crawford]

They are not closely related and they had not the same source, they hadn't belonged to the same ancient ancestral population.

but what clade did the different ancestral populations carry is what i am asking?

[Kapisa]

but what clade did the different ancestral populations carry is what i am asking?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2124/

[Coldmountains]

but what clade did the different ancestral populations carry is what i am asking?

Z2124 is a gigantic and very diverse branch of Z94. It is Pan-Indo-Iranian and in absolute numbers has probably as many if not more carriers in South Asia as outside of it (for example 720 million Indian males -> 25% R1a -> 25% of R1a is Z2124 -> 45 million Z2124 in India alone). Almost all of South Asian Z2124 is Z2123 which again is Pan-Indo-Iranian and has West Iranic,East Iranic, Scythian, Indo-Aryan,... clades. But these clades split from each other around 2000-2500 B.C in the Proto-Indo-Iranian stage when the ancestors of Indo-Iranians populated the chain of forest-steppe cultures from the Don to the Trans-Ural region (Abashevo<Sintashta<Andronovo). In this stage, there was not really any autosomal difference between various Proto-Indo-Iranian groups and neither much of a cultural difference (Steppe_MLBA profile like already found in Sintashta). Later these tribes picked different substrates and went through different bottle necks. With early Iranics in Central Asia tending to pick more sedentary BMAC-like ancestry and early Indo-Aryans tending to pick more IAMC (Inner Asian Mountain corridor) ancestry before they entered South Asia and picked IVC-like ancestry

[RCO]

Several R1a clades are related to Turkic, Mongol, Dravidian and Uralic populations. The first Indo-European populations in Iran and BMAC were part of the Eastern wing of the Southern Arc and they had not archaeological R1a. Indo-Europeanized populations from other regions and other haplogroups always had the steppe admixture when they were reached by the IE movements and expansion.

[Coldmountains]

Several R1a clades are related to Turkic, Mongol, Dravidian and Uralic populations. The first Indo-European populations in Iran and BMAC were part of the Eastern wing of the Southern Arc and they had not archaeological R1a. Indo-Europeanized populations from other regions and other haplogroups always had the steppe admixture when they were reached by the IE movements and expansion.

The R1a among these people is not even basal R1a-Z93 and under very recent Z93 clades shared with historical or nearby Indo-Iranians. So far no R1a-Z93 was found before the Iron Age in a non-IE and non-Indo-Iranian context.

[Cvietok]

Z2124 is a gigantic and very diverse branch of Z94. It is Pan-Indo-Iranian and in absolute numbers has probably as many if not more carriers in South Asia as outside of it (for example 720 million Indian males -> 25% R1a -> 25% of R1a is Z2124 -> 45 million Z2124 in India alone). Almost all of South Asian Z2124 is Z2123 which again is Pan-Indo-Iranian and has West Iranic,East Iranic, Scythian, Indo-Aryan,... clades. But these clades split from each other around 2000-2500 B.C in the Proto-Indo-Iranian stage when the ancestors of Indo-Iranians populated the chain of forest-steppe cultures from the Don to the Trans-Ural region (Abashevo<Sintashta<Andronovo). In this stage, there was not really any autosomal difference between various Proto-Indo-Iranian groups and neither much of a cultural difference (Steppe_MLBA profile like already found in Sintashta). Later these tribes picked different substrates and went through different bottle necks. With early Iranics in Central Asia tending to pick more sedentary BMAC-like ancestry and early Indo-Aryans tending to pick more IAMC (Inner Asian Mountain corridor) ancestry before they entered South Asia and picked IVC-like ancestry

Well, the pan-IIr distribution of Z2124 is very clear. But I still have some doubt about I6561. One theory is that it carries a mixture similar to CTC rather than GAC, so it belongs to SSC. While another theory is that it is re-labeled as MLBA. As a Y3 sample, I6561 is very important in surmising the birth time of Z2124.

[Coldmountains]

Well, the pan-IIr distribution of Z2124 is very clear. But I still have some doubt about I6561. One theory is that it carries a mixture similar to CTC rather than GAC, so it belongs to SSC. While another theory is that it is re-labeled as MLBA. As a Y3 sample, I6561 is very important in surmising the birth time of Z2124.

The sample is probably misdated and of low quality. I would not interpret too much into him for now without more samples. If he was Y3+ then probably a dead end considering his geography and likely dating in the Srubnaya period. More interesting for the question of the origin of Y3 and Z2124 would be sampling more of Abashevo and eastern Fatyanovo. Y3 and Z2124 should be there but I feel Z2124 was already much more common in this early stage than Y3<L657. It is probably no coincidence that Z2124 is frequent among all Indo-Iranians but Y3 seemingly just in one subgroup.

[RCO]

So far no R1a-Z93 was found before the Iron Age (and Bronze Age) in a IE and Indo-Iranian (Iran-Central South Asia) context. European R1a were Indo-Europeanized in Central-Eastern Europe.

The R1a among these people is not even basal R1a-Z93 and under very recent Z93 clades shared with historical or nearby Indo-Iranians. So far no R1a-Z93 was found before the Iron Age in a non-IE and non-Indo-Iranian context.