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Thread: New R-Z251 Project at FTDNA

  1. #1
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    New R-Z251 Project at FTDNA

    Great News!

    Mike Wadna has initiated the process to have Family Tree DNA create our own R-Z251 project. I will update you all once we have more information, but the process is underway and we should have a project up soon (pending approval).

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     kenmunn (06-17-2014)

  3. #2
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    Boy, FTDNA went fast on this one. We are running.
    www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Z251/

    I'm going to move to the background quickly on this project but with East Carolina as the main moderator. I think he could use another co-moderator. I'll try to set up background screens and initial subgroupings. I'll likely have some mistakes in links or hanging words from a template I have.

    As far as subgroupings should they be this?

    Z251*,
    A241
    Z16943*
    Z16943>L555
    S11556*
    S11556>S9294*
    S11556>S9294>L583
    CTS4571

    This does not include Big Y and FGC results, but my old list of Z251 is this.

    f187172 Lewis
    f186657 Blair
    f24273 zzzUnk(Norman)
    f170540 Herrington
    f302755 Herrington
    f109174 Herrington
    f180639 zzzUnk(Crawford)
    fN10900 Pierce
    f89644 Byers
    f57565 Ervin
    f153158 Erwin
    f65048 Erwin
    f114797 Erwin
    f138798 Erwin
    f3874 Hoyt
    f74798 Irvin
    f25244 Irvine
    f181966 Irvine
    f22874 Irvine
    f54774 Irving
    f33141 Irwin
    f54412 Irwin
    f115781 Irwin
    f72683 Irwin
    f78458 Irwin
    f260850 Nipper
    f225023 Rountree
    fN114612 zzzUnknown
    f62937 Sinclair
    f89888 Watt
    f139697 Godwin
    f201644 Burde
    f276365 Gleeman
    fN8086 Levin
    f193834 Yurzditsky
    f282013 Zakon
    f231656 Burgin
    f236075 Foat
    f29523 McNaught(McKnight)

    This may not show up in the join screen for a day or two. If I remember right I have to click some checkbox some where for that???

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     seferhabahir (06-18-2014)

  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Boy, FTDNA went fast on this one. We are running.
    www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Z251/

    I'm going to move to the background quickly on this project but with East Carolina as the main moderator. I think he could use another co-moderator. I'll try to set up background screens and initial subgroupings. I'll likely have some mistakes in links or hanging words from a template I have.

    As far as subgroupings should they be this?

    Z251*,
    A241
    Z16943*
    Z16943>L555
    S11556*
    S11556>S9294*
    S11556>S9294>L583
    CTS4571

    This does not include Big Y and FGC results...
    There are some other partial results that we might want to think about related to FGC SNPs.

    FGC11986 is shared by four people who are S9294 (me and someone else who is 251-11EE, along with Rickwood, and Harrington). This SNP has not been easy to detect in Big Y results. It may be below S9294.

    There are four FGC SNPs that I have that someone else who is 251-11EE and L583- does not have (FGC11963, FGC11978, FGC11985, and FGC11991). These four SNPs are somewhere on the lineage that pre-dates or post-dates L583, and presumably identifies this line. Based on a rough extrapolation of partial results, this indicates that the line that leads to L583+ Levites split off from the rest of 251-11EE about 1000 years ago. I have asked this other 251-11EE person to join the new Z251 project so we can make a new subgrouping that represents 251-11EE without L583.

  6. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by seferhabahir View Post
    There are four FGC SNPs that I have that someone else who is 251-11EE and L583- does not have (FGC11963, FGC11978, FGC11985, and FGC11991). These four SNPs are somewhere on the lineage that pre-dates or post-dates L583, and presumably identifies this line. Based on a rough extrapolation of partial results, this indicates that the line that leads to L583+ Levites split off from the rest of 251-11EE about 1000 years ago. I have asked this other 251-11EE person to join the new Z251 project so we can make a new subgrouping that represents 251-11EE without L583.
    I see the other Z251-11EE person has joined (kit 151577 Kabo), so here are some suggestions to further cluster people:

    Replace group D4. Z251>S11556>S9294>L583 with D4. Z251>S11556>S9294>FGC11986 and put Mildenhall and all the Herrington kits into it

    Create a new group D5. Z251>11556>S9294>FGC11986>FGC11975 and put the Kabo kit into it (note I am picking only one SNP here out of 17 shared SNPs for simplicity)

    Create a new group D6. Z251>11556>S9294>FGC11986>FGC11975>FGC11963/FGC11978/FGC11985/FGC11991/L583 and put Zakon, Yurzditsky, and Burde into it

    I have no way at the moment to differentiate FGC11963, FGC11978, FGC11985, FGC11991 and L583 but I know they are all downstream from FGC11975 (and the other 16 SNPs Kabo shares with me)

    (I will be more than happy to do this myself once I get project co-administration privileges)

  7. #5
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    seferhabahir -

    I'll get you set up shortly. We also probably need a category for confirmed S11556+, but S9294- such as Crawford.

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     seferhabahir (06-18-2014)

  9. #6
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    Thank you to all that made this happen. I was DF13* for some time till I discovered Z251. I am currently testing for A241 and hoping for a positive out come.
    Thanks again Brian

  10. #7
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    There are two pending BIG Y tests for the 251-11EE cluster (one for a person who is L583- and one for a person who is L583+). The results from those tests together with my existing results from FGC and some other results from YSEQ for an L583- person will help to nail down some of the (long elusive) SNPs that will identify 251-11EE (the old Baltic Cluster) and its L583- and L583+ subclades, even if they go back a long ways in the past.

    Also, I put some things in the Z251 and Subclades project's News section that say what I know about my sixty FGC SNPs that are at or below S9294 (mostly below, except for FGC11986 which is maybe at the same level or even above S9294) and some of the implications. I've been able to attract a few (well, two) more 251-11EE people to join the project. Maybe I can convince more to join. This is the only FTDNA project that attempts to explain an origin of L21 Eastern European Jews.

    I consider these two BIG Y orders a major victory in being able to accumulate information about this cluster after several years of investigation. It appears there is a probable separation of a Levite L583+ subclade from the rest of 251-11EE perhaps 900-1000 years ago (1000-1100 CE, the time of Rashi and the first Crusade). During that time, itís been estimated up to 25-30% of the Jewish populations of Germany and Northern France may have been lost in pogroms, and a probable bottleneck reflected in the distinct STR markers of 251-11EE when compared to the rest of R-L21.

  11. #8
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    Hello All

    there is someone on the FTDNA forum that is Z251+ and could use our help. His name is Don Potter, I do not have a kit #
    I tried to sign up for their forum but for some reason I can not post or do anything and FTDNA has not fixed the problem yet.
    I would like for him to try testing for A241 since he was neg for most other sub branches, and to invite him to the Z251
    project. If anyone can reach out to this person that would be nice.
    Thanks Brian

  12. #9
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    R- Z251, R - S11556

    Hello, I just tested positive for R - S11556. I am kit 208276.

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     seferhabahir (02-05-2015)

  14. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMacKall View Post
    Hello, I just tested positive for R - S11556. I am kit 208276.
    If you are not already aware of it you can find the S11556+ people who have tested with BigY and FGC Elite at the following site so you might get some ideas for downstream testing if interested.
    http://www.littlescottishcluster.com...GS/R-Z251.html

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