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Thread: Exhumation of remains of a Galician nobleman to check if he was related to C. Columbu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodilkas View Post
    The quotes provided by Ajeje are pseudo science compared to DNA results. I can give you a thousand of quotes from Spaniards who claim that Colon was Genoese, but maybe they all are wrong because he hid his true origin.
    Pseudoscience? Lol. Genoese Columbus is a historically established fact; science has nothing to do with this.

    And there is no mystery behind Columbus' origins, either he ends up plotting near North Italians, or what they are testing is not the actual Christopher Columbus. Simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodilkas View Post
    Colon explains in his will that this signature has to be used by his descendants in perpetuity

    S "Señor" is equivalent to Lord, Admiral tittle
    SAS "Su Alta Señoria" , equals his High Lordship, Viceroy treatment
    XMY "Excelente, Magnifico, Ilustre, treatment of Governors, Captains General and members of his Majesty council
    Xpo is the Galician abbreviation for Christ that means Cristobal

    FERENS means Fernandeanes, whose exact meaning is

    Cristobal son of Fernan Yañez

    If he had signed as Cristoforo Colombo, everything would be easier.
    LOL, "Xpo ferens" is neither Galician nor means "Fernandeanes".

    Such an explanation is more plausible:

    S. (Servus)
    S.A.S. (Sum Altissimi Salvatoris)
    XMY (Xristus Maria Yosephus)
    Xpo FERENS (Xristo Ferens)

    This translates to "Servant I am of the Most Exalted Savior, Christ, Mary, and Joseph, Christ Bearer".

    "Xpo ferens" is a Greek-Latin form meaning "Christ-bearer", aka "Cristoforo". "Xpo" in Latin texts is an abbreviation of the Greek word "Christos"; "ferens" is present participle of "ferō" and means "bearing, carrying".


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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidtab View Post
    Colón figures as Genovese because he said he was from Genove. The real point is: It´s possible he lied about his origin.
    Spoiler: he didn't and had no reason to do so. On the contrary, it would have made much more sense to lie and convince the Spanish or Portuguese that he was descended from their people or nobility, rather than claiming to be the son of some random wool weaver who also owned a cheese bank far away in Genoa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidtab View Post
    Like Galician, I would say the Galician theory about Colon has more than 100 years old... the investigators arrived to Poio in Pontevedra in second half of XIX century, the common iletrated people of Poio in Pontevedra (Southern Galicia) simply said: "Yes, Colón was from this town and that was the house of his family".

    The only two consistent theories are the Genovese, very well documented but with weak points like Colón never was able to write in Italian, and the Galician/Portuguese theory. The catalonian theory is a complete stupity.
    The Galician hypothesis is equally idiotic and is even debunked by Spanish Wikipedia.

    Another hypothesis indicates that Columbus was of Galician origin. Celso García de la Riega and later Enrique María de Arribas y Turull supported this theory, mainly based on documents from the Columbus era that recorded the existence of families with this surname. However, these were later discredited by the paleographer Eladio Oviedo Arce, who concluded that these documents were either forgeries or had been manipulated after their creation. However, in 2013 a new study considered the documents to be authentic, limiting itself to confirming the presence of inhabitants with the surname Columbus in the current province of Pontevedra, without pronouncing on the supposed Galician origin of the Admiral. In the words of María del Carmen Hidalgo Brinquis, who presented the results of the verification, this finding neither denies nor confirms the Galician origin of the navigator, as it only shows "that in Pontevedra there was a Columbus clan, but we do not know if it was that of the discoverer of America".

    A variant of the Galician theory identifies Columbus with the nobleman from Pontevedra Pedro Álvarez de Sotomayor; this hypothesis is rejected by most historians, who expose, among many documents, the will of his son Álvaro written in 1491, where he cites "the bones of my parents (...) bring them and bury them in the chapel that the S. Bishop D. Juan fizo in the Cathedral Church of Pontevedra. Juan fizo in the Cathedral Church of Tuy", which indicates that Pedro de Sotomayor was dead before Columbus reached the Americas.

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  5. #73
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    So... yes, it´s attested we have Colón surname in Poio (Pontevedra) since, at least, XIV century, ok, in old rechecked 15 documents (today there are doubts only about 3 of the 15 documents) and on a stone (wikipedia doesn´t talk about that stone in Poio). Granada University is undigging bones from the ancient Poio cemmetery, ok, we should believe they are wasting a good amount of money digging "under a tree" 1.000 km away from Granada by whim. Granada University has studied genetically the bones of Cristóbal Colón and sons, ok, and they already know the autosomal results lots of months ago. Are they digging "under a tree" in Barcelona, Mallorca or, what else... Poland? No, they are digging in Pontevedra. Imagine one thing, Ajeje Brazof: imagine there is DNA match between those old bones from Poio (or Xohan Mariño tomb) and those bones from Colón (Cristóbal and sons). How could you explain it? DNA will say, and nothing else. If results match North Italian, that´s good, it would be the definitive proof of Geneve origin, but if results don´t match North Italian we have to see what the hell the DNA of those bones match... and that´s all.

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    Meh about the supposed controversy, I wonder how much North African admixture Galicians had in this period, I always thought that to some extend the deportations and movement after the Granadan war were partially responsible for the elevated North African ancestry in Western Iberia.

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    What deportations from Granada to Galicia? is there any document in XVII century attesting something like that in Galicia? NO WAY, NA in Western Iberia is much older than that, surely from Roman times, reinforced in NW Iberia between VIII and XI centuries by christian refugees arrived from SW Iberia and even from Maghreb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hantrolugharsts View Post
    The strange thing is that absolutely no information has been leaked, someone should try, some savvy journalist, we need to know something now.

    On this occasion, as on so many others, the thing will not be forgotten, some information must be obtained, someone must leave the language before it becomes official; although it has all the signs that this is going to remain at a standstill, we will not allow it, something is cooking here that was not the expected result.
    There are no leaks because there is a confidentiality contract that includes that the first to know the definitive results must be the Colón de Carvajal family and because some who had a long tongue have been removed from the project. So the mistery will remain until the end. The genetic results do NOT point to Italy but to Spain and so they have to look for alternatives to the Genoese origin. Researchers are leaving some important clues, including exhuming people of the Sotomayor lineage.

    Nobody thinks of Pedro "Madruga", but os some Portuguese or Galician nobleman related to the Sotomayor family who was a supporter of Juana la Beltraneja and betrayed Portugal by selling its secrets to the Court of Castile. That is the reason for hidong his real identity

    He had to have good contacts in Castile because an obscure Genoese sailor would never be received by the Kings of Castile, especially in the middle of the war against Granada, and much less would he get Queen Isabella to finance his project. Colón whatever his true identity knew from Galician sailors who had been swept away by ocean currents that there was a land beyond the Atlantic ocean

    The Galician origin of Colón is so far pseudoscience, although it is evident that he suffered a permanent attack of amnesia and forgot everything about his Genoese origin.

    1-We have already said that he never spoke or wrote in Italian (Tuscan, ligurian-genoese etc...), he even translated words from Italian and wrote them in Castilian

    2-He never wrote in his mother tongue (whatever it was) even when writing to his so-called compatriots.

    3-The nao Santa Maria was called "La Gallega" before being renamed

    4-He used more than 60 toponyms in the lands (islands, rivers, capes, bays....) he was discovering. This means that he knew the coasts of Galicia perfectly well and that he was trying to pay homage to his native land.

    5-He did not know the Liguarian coasts?, he forgot the Ligurian toponyms?, he hated his homeland and did not want to remember it?. If he was really Genoese, using italian toponyms would have been the best way to prove his origin because he said that he was Genoese.

    6-More than 50 names that correspond to Pontevedra and its estuary-Punta Lanzada, Punta Galea, Punta Con, isla de Gracia, Santa Maria la Antigua, mar de Santo Tomé, Caco Campana, isla de San Martín, Punta Corvo....

    7- San Salvador and Santa Maria de la Concepción, these are the first names given, and curiously are those of his parish. He also named a river San Salvador that flows into the bay which he named Portosanto and Portosanto was an inlet near his supposed birthplace in Galicia.

    8-He named one island as La Gallega, never La Genovesa, la Mallorquina, La Catalana, La Portuguesa, La Italiana o la Corsica.

    9-The only festivity celebrated during his trip os the Virgen Maria de la O, december 18, which is the patron saint of Pontevedra since the 10th century and whose festivity was celebrated from the 15th onwards.

    10-In his letters, Colón writes with Castilian, portuguese, galician-portuguese and exclusive Galician words-Agora, congoxa, debuxar, deprender, despois, fame, fisga, foe, forza, levava, lexos, moa, sede, seido, soma.....

    11-Nor he was english-In one of his letters he writes-"These fish are called in english stroqfis (stocked fish)"

    He doesn't look very Genoese, does he?.

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  10. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    Pseudoscience? Lol. Genoese Columbus is a historically established fact; science has nothing to do with this.

    And there is no mystery behind Columbus' origins, either he ends up plotting near North Italians, or what they are testing is not the actual Christopher Columbus. Simple as that.



    LOL, "Xpo ferens" is neither Galician nor means "Fernandeanes".

    Such an explanation is more plausible:

    S. (Servus)
    S.A.S. (Sum Altissimi Salvatoris)
    XMY (Xristus Maria Yosephus)
    Xpo FERENS (Xristo Ferens)

    This translates to "Servant I am of the Most Exalted Savior, Christ, Mary, and Joseph, Christ Bearer".

    "Xpo ferens" is a Greek-Latin form meaning "Christ-bearer", aka "Cristoforo". "Xpo" in Latin texts is an abbreviation of the Greek word "Christos"; "ferens" is present participle of "ferō" and means "bearing, carrying".

    It is clear that you are convinced that Colón was Genoese, I hope you accept the results if he finally turns out to be Galician. It will be interesting to discuss them in this forum.

    Regarding his signature, besides the fact that Colón had no idea how to speak or write Latin, may be you could explain why he never signed as Colombo. Did he forget his original surname? Was he ashamed of his land or lineage?

    If he tried to prove a Genoese origin, why hide his surname?

    I would not say that the Galician theory is idiotic, you might be surprised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodilkas View Post
    It is clear that you are convinced that Colón was Genoese, I hope you accept the results if he finally turns out to be Galician. It will be interesting to discuss them in this forum.

    Regarding his signature, besides the fact that Colón had no idea how to speak or write Latin, may be you could explain why he never signed as Colombo. Did he forget his original surname? Was he ashamed of his land or lineage?

    If he tried to prove a Genoese origin, why hide his surname?

    I would not say that the Galician theory is idiotic, you might be surprised.
    Although genetics will be the one to say the origin of Colon, Ajeje has shown quotes from contemporaries such as Bartolome de las Casas, so we will have to wait for the results, since to give an example a few years ago a study came out that said that Napoleon III did not share the same I halogrouped that the rest of the Bonaparte family making it possible that he is an illegitimate son of Hortense, I wonder what happened to that study

    https://www.lefigaro.fr/mon-figaro/2...l-empereur.php

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    In those days, hiding one's origins or inventing them was very common.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodilkas View Post
    You should not turn this thread into a fight between italians and Spaniards.

    History cannot be changed and DNA will solve the mistery

    And you should not say that they have analyzed remains under a tree to try to discredit the research because the project has analyzed remains of all Colon family. Now they are searching in Galicia because the results have nothing to do with Italy.

    If finally it turns out that Colon is not Italian you will always have Scipio the African
    Some people think he's Jewish.

    I think he is italian though. Are we getting the DNA of Columbus himself?

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