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Thread: ancient Central Germanic data

  1. #1
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    ancient Central Germanic data

    Anyone know more about the origins of celts from Glauberg central Germany.

    All i have if that the original 3 skeletons has recently become 27 skeletons......all of "royal" statue

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...05440313003324

    I it was discovered a decade or so ago, but recent extra findings could give better outcomes.

    http://d-nb.info/1049810147/34


    some german transalation states

    *Nach neuesten DNA-Analysen müssen offensichtlich althergebrachte Geschichtsbilder revidiert werden. Viel dazu haben die Völkerwanderungen des XX. Jahrhundert beigetragen. Demnach sind heute 45 % der Deutschen (ohne heutige Einwanderer), keltischer und nur 25 % germanischer Herkunft (väterlicherseits sogar nur 6 % eines germanischen Ursprungs). 30 % der Deutschen stammen von Osteuropäern (20 % Slawen und 10 % Andere) ab. Die Bevölkerungen in Polen (60 % Germanen und 32 % Slawen) und der Tschechischen Republik (50 % Germanen und 42 % Slawen) weisen einen deutlich höheren Anteil germanischer Wurzeln als die Deutschen selbst. Offensichtlich sind viele ostgermanische Stämme doch nicht ausgewandert und schon gar nicht ausgestorben, sondern mit der Zeit nur polonisiert worden. Lediglich die ostgermanischen Sprachen sind mit der Zeit ausgestorben. Nach der iGENEA DNA-Genealogie hat 10 % Deutscher jüdische Vorfahren.*
    German-Bohemian Heritage Society

    The results of most recent DNA analyzes will have to make revisions to commonly known history. Today, Germans (without more recent foreign immigrants) are of 45% Celtic origin and only 25% of Germanic origin. (From the father's side only 6% Germanic.) Thirty percent (30%) of all Germans have their origin in Eastern Europeans with a mix of 20% Slavic and 10% other tribes. The population in Poland is 60% Germanic and 32% Slavic, and in the Czech Republic 50% Germanic and 42% Slavic, in fact they represent a higher Germanic heritage than the Germans themselves.
    Apparently, East Germanic tribes never migrated and never died out (in Eastern areas) but have gradually been polonized during which time all East Germanic languages were lost.



    to me it just proves more so that the celts originated in central Germany and then moved to southern Germany ( I refer to only bronze-age period )


    EDIT: if second link does not work.....find
    High mobility rates during the period of the “Celtic migrations
    Mirjam Scheeres


    its 155 pages ( PDF file)
    Last edited by vettor; 06-18-2014 at 10:15 AM.


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    From the Corina Knipper paper: Social differentiation and land use at an Early Iron Age “princely seat”: bioarchaeological investigations at the Glauberg (Germany)
    Ten out of 15 analysed individuals (66.7%) could be typed successfully for mitochondrial DNA (Tab. 1, Suppl. 12, 13). Their GenoCoRe22 SNP profiles, HVR I, and HVR II sequences matched up phylogenetically, and showed no reproducible contamination, and therefore allowed confident haplogroup assignment by comparison to the PhyloTree.org database (phylotree build 14; van Oven and Kayser, 2009). The sequences of these individuals are deposited in GenBank (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/genbank/;KF726382-KF726395) and don't match the profile of any involved researcher (Suppl. 12, Tab. 3). For one individual (KL 111-1), no unambiguous HVR I profile could be obtained. According to the GenoCoRe22, however, both analysed samples belong to haplogroup H.

    The people of the Glauberg belong to typical modern-day central European haplogroups (H, HV, I, K, U5) with H and K constituting the largest proportion, while all others occurred only once. Two skeletons shared an identical maternal lineage of haplogroup K (tumulus 1/grave 4 and KL 116-1) in both HVR I and II. For all other analysed individuals, including those from the same mass graves, maternal relationship can be excluded. Although the multiplex approach targeting Y-chromosomal SNPs was especially designed to match the requirements of degraded ancient DNA (Haak et al., 2010), no sufficient Y-chromosomal profiles could be reconstructed for any of the analysed individuals. Therefore, conclusions about possible paternal relationships among the individuals are impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Anyone know more about the origins of celts from Glauberg central Germany.

    All i have if that the original 3 skeletons has recently become 27 skeletons......all of "royal" statue

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...05440313003324

    I it was discovered a decade or so ago, but recent extra findings could give better outcomes.

    http://d-nb.info/1049810147/34


    some german transalation states

    *Nach neuesten DNA-Analysen müssen offensichtlich althergebrachte Geschichtsbilder revidiert werden. Viel dazu haben die Völkerwanderungen des XX. Jahrhundert beigetragen. Demnach sind heute 45 % der Deutschen (ohne heutige Einwanderer), keltischer und nur 25 % germanischer Herkunft (väterlicherseits sogar nur 6 % eines germanischen Ursprungs). 30 % der Deutschen stammen von Osteuropäern (20 % Slawen und 10 % Andere) ab. Die Bevölkerungen in Polen (60 % Germanen und 32 % Slawen) und der Tschechischen Republik (50 % Germanen und 42 % Slawen) weisen einen deutlich höheren Anteil germanischer Wurzeln als die Deutschen selbst. Offensichtlich sind viele ostgermanische Stämme doch nicht ausgewandert und schon gar nicht ausgestorben, sondern mit der Zeit nur polonisiert worden. Lediglich die ostgermanischen Sprachen sind mit der Zeit ausgestorben. Nach der iGENEA DNA-Genealogie hat 10 % Deutscher jüdische Vorfahren.*
    German-Bohemian Heritage Society

    The results of most recent DNA analyzes will have to make revisions to commonly known history. Today, Germans (without more recent foreign immigrants) are of 45% Celtic origin and only 25% of Germanic origin. (From the father's side only 6% Germanic.) Thirty percent (30%) of all Germans have their origin in Eastern Europeans with a mix of 20% Slavic and 10% other tribes. The population in Poland is 60% Germanic and 32% Slavic, and in the Czech Republic 50% Germanic and 42% Slavic, in fact they represent a higher Germanic heritage than the Germans themselves.
    Apparently, East Germanic tribes never migrated and never died out (in Eastern areas) but have gradually been polonized during which time all East Germanic languages were lost.



    to me it just proves more so that the celts originated in central Germany and then moved to southern Germany ( I refer to only bronze-age period )


    EDIT: if second link does not work.....find
    High mobility rates during the period of the “Celtic migrations
    Mirjam Scheeres


    its 155 pages ( PDF file)
    This report is a real eye-opener and will give those who hold neo-Nazi racialist ideas a bad case of heartburn (serves 'em right). To think that the so-called Eastern European "untermenschen" are more Germanic than the Germans...the irony would be delicious if the actual events hadn't been so monumentally tragic. I'm not sure this information will be well-received in the east by folks whose grandparents were abused by German invaders during WWII.

    My German is spotty but what is the meaning of that last line that you didn't translate?

    "Nach der iGENEA DNA-Genealogie hat 10 % Deutscher jüdische Vorfahren."

    If it means what I think it means, I'm glad Hitler didn't have modern DNA testing technology. The implications are frightening.

    I wonder how soon a test will be developed that can differentiate between true "Germanic" autosomal DNA and the more ancient "Celtic" DNA.
    Last edited by Grossvater; 06-18-2014 at 03:56 PM.

  6. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grossvater View Post
    ... To think that the so-called Eastern European "untermenschen" are more Germanic than the Germans...the irony would be delicious if the actual events hadn't been so monumentally tragic. I'm not sure this information will be well-received in the east by folks whose grandparents were abused by German invaders during WWII.

    My German is spotty but what is the meaning of that last line that you didn't translate?

    "Nach der iGENEA DNA-Genealogie hat 10 % Deutscher jüdische Vorfahren."

    ...
    I have been of the opinion for many years that the early Germans must have been very close to the Slavs living in the Baltic to the Black Sea region. My main reason for thinking so is that both the upper Iron age Germans of the Vistula-Elbe region as well southern Hun period Gothic ones from north of the Black Sea, came from regions now quite Slavic.

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post11117
    Last edited by parasar; 06-18-2014 at 04:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grossvater View Post
    I'm not sure this information will be well-received in the east by folks whose grandparents were abused by German invaders during WWII.
    It's Okay, my grandfather abused the German invaders...and how. But I won't go into that.

    Nevertheless, this reads like a 12-year-old ran the tests and wrote it. I don't buy it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grossvater View Post
    This report is a real eye-opener and will give those who hold neo-Nazi racialist ideas a bad case of heartburn (serves 'em right). To think that the so-called Eastern European "untermenschen" are more Germanic than the Germans...the irony would be delicious if the actual events hadn't been so monumentally tragic. I'm not sure this information will be well-received in the east by folks whose grandparents were abused by German invaders during WWII.

    My German is spotty but what is the meaning of that last line that you didn't translate?

    "Nach der iGENEA DNA-Genealogie hat 10 % Deutscher jüdische Vorfahren."

    If it means what I think it means, I'm glad Hitler didn't have modern DNA testing technology. The implications are frightening.

    I wonder how soon a test will be developed that can differentiate between true "Germanic" autosomal DNA and the more ancient "Celtic" DNA.
    The quote in German that @vettor posted seems to have nothing to do with the study as far as I can see (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). It looks like the quote was based on ideas that were floating around about ten years ago that any population that has high R1b is descended from Celts. Rubbish.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
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    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
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    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    I think we are still a long way away from being able to give absolute ethnic/linguistic labels to clades and it may never be entirely rational to try. IMO whatever a lineage first spoke, the long term linguistic pattern would be set by spheres of influence and political power blocks, not line of descent. A lineage might mainly fall geographically into one block or another but who is to say that a minority of a given lineage hadnt always been located in another linguistic/cultural block from the majority of their lineage.

    A good example of this is U106. Clearly a century or so earlier they had spoken the same language as P312 in the form of their shared L11 ancestor. However, it would seem that U106 and much of P312 ended up within different linguistic/cultural blocks at some point in the Bronze Age. U106 or its ancestral branch of L11* would seem to have simply ended up in a different cultural/linguistic block than P312, probably largely a matter of geography and choice of migration routes. We cannot lose sight of the fact that P312 and U106 shared a very close ancestor L11 who could only have spoken one dialect of IE. Perhaps L11 predates the formation of separate Celto-Italic and Germanic.

    The SNP counting method might place L11 at before 4000BC. If that is proven to be true then Mr L11 existed at a time before the Celtic, Italic and Germanic had developed according to most steppe models and at a time when archaeologically the zones later associated with these dialects had not been settled by any archaeological cultures considered to likely be IE (unless one is following the farmers=IE model). In other words if L11 dates to before 4000BC then most models of branching would have them speaking no distinct surviving IE dialect and would pretty well dictate Mr L11 spoke common PIE and indeed perhaps a fairly archaic form of PIE. A date like that of course would place Mr L11 in a time when steppe models would place even archaic PIEs no further west than the Balkans/Hungary etc. I tend to think L11 is not quite as old as the suggested SNP based date of Michal and would be more comfortable with L51 dating to c. 4000BC at the very earliest and L11 somewhat later more like 3000BC or later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    The quote in German that @vettor posted seems to have nothing to do with the study as far as I can see (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). It looks like the quote was based on ideas that were floating around about ten years ago that any population that has high R1b is descended from Celts. Rubbish.
    iGENEA published these percentages some years ago. It was even mentioned in newspapers. However, iGENEA deleted all these calculations without any explanation one day (after the non-explained departure of a key person of their staff).
    Known ancestry: 92.6% German (66.8% North German), 4.7% Danish, 1.8% Czech, 0.8% Austrian, 0.1% Swiss.
    EUROGENES K13: N German, N Dutch, DNK, SWE, NOR. Ancestry: Germanic 71%, Sweden 25%, England/Wales 4%. LM: NOR, DNK, NLD, N-DEU, SWE.
    23andMe: NW Europe 82.4% (French/German 50.2%, Scandinavian 9.1%, British/Irish 3.2%), East Europe 11.5%, South Europe 1.5%. DNAL: NW Euro 81%, NE Euro 11%, Med 6.5%
    Y-DNA: R1b/U152/Z36/CTS4333, Thuringia 1634, probably Alsace 1552, -- mt-DNA: H

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    Attachment 1972
    copy of iGENEA analysis some years ago ....
    Known ancestry: 92.6% German (66.8% North German), 4.7% Danish, 1.8% Czech, 0.8% Austrian, 0.1% Swiss.
    EUROGENES K13: N German, N Dutch, DNK, SWE, NOR. Ancestry: Germanic 71%, Sweden 25%, England/Wales 4%. LM: NOR, DNK, NLD, N-DEU, SWE.
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    Has anyone got the full article?

    The point of this recent article from C. Knipper is that the heart, the royal establishment, of the celts was Glauberg in central Germany.
    The new paper sheds more findings from what they had ~10 years ago, what are these?

    Was there other Celtic royal sites with other celtic tribes?....who knows


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