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    Albanian Discussion Thread

    I have opened this thread to discuss Albanian-related topics, ranging from linguistic to historical to genetic, and as a means to not derail the new thread on Albanian DNA results. That being said, please keep discussions civil and productive, and avoid making the discussions personal.

    To begin, a new paper titled 'Romance in Contact with Albanian' (19 October 2022) has been published and provides very interesting insights into the historical and linguistic contacts between Albanian and Latin, as well as with later Romance languages.

    Below are some key quotations:

    The oldest contacts between Latin and Proto-Albanian go back to the 2nd century BCE, after the victory of the Romans against the Illyrian king Genthios in 168 BCE, or even the 3rd century BCE, when the Romans first invaded the Illyrian coast in 229 BCE...

    Along with now-extinct Dalmatian, Romanian is a possible candidate for Balkan-Latin sources of Albanian borrowings... As for their languages, Mihăescu unlike, for example Çabej sought to reduce common lexical characteristics of Albanian with Romanian. He maintained among other things that Latin reflexes are older in Albanian than in Romanian, for example, faqe 'face' < Lat. facies; Romanian has the younger form faţă < Lat. facia...

    In view of the absence of historical documents, the discussion on these questions largely depends on the characteristics of the (reconstructed) languages, which in the case of Albanian even concerns the central question of their Illyrian or Thracian heritage. In addition to some terms going back to a common Balkan or even Mediterranean substrate... the main question is, whether Albanian borrowings from non-classical Latin can be derived from Proto-Romanian (or eastern Balkan Latin) or whether Albanian has common characteristics only with Dalmatian (western Balkan Latin). In any case, possible contacts with Romanians do not concern the oldest layer of Latin influences on Albanian, as they go back to times when only the coast was Romanized and not the central Balkan areas. What is more, Albanian has preserved Latin characteristics that did not survive in any Romance language, that is, from before the regionalization of Latin, or at least may be found elsewhere only in very conservative varieties; see, for example, the preservation of Latin k, g before front vowels Albanian has in common with Sardinian varieties, the conservation of the neuter in Latin borrowings or archaic Latin lexemes like ōs 'mouth' > Alb. vesh 'ear', vetus, veteris > Alb. i vjetër 'old', where Romance languages, including Romanian, show only derivations...

    Mihăescu differentiated four categories of common terms of Albanian with Romanian, which in a way contrary to Çabej's opinion also reflects different chronological stages:

    1) Latin words of extended circulation, preserved not only in Albanian and Romanian, but also in western Romance languages (including Italian). This is the largest group in Mihăescu's corpus, containing 270 items like altare '(sacrificial) altar' > Alb. Lter, Ro. altar; arena > Alb. rërë (Geg rênë), Ro. arină; aurum > Alb. ar, Ro. aur.

    2) Latin words, common to Albanian and western Romance languages (partially also to Dalmatian), but not found in Romanian. Mihăescu counted 151 elements in this groups, for example, amicus 'friend' > Alb. mik; causa 'thing' > Alb. kafshë 'animal, thing'; fides 'belief' > Alb. fe; servire 'to serve' > Alb. shërbenj.

    3) Latin words found only in Romanian and Albanian. Mihăescu's corpus contains 39 of them, of which 19 are terms of wider circulation in these languages, like canticum 'song' > Alb. këngë, Ro. cîntec; sessus ‘plain’ > Alb. shesh, Ro. şes. Twelve of them are uncertain because of formal or semantic inconsistencies, for example, hospitium, *hostip(it)ium > Alb. shtëpi 'house', Ro. ospăţ ‘banquet’; dirigere > Alb. dërgonj ‘to send’, Ro. drege ‘to make’. The rest of them consist of local Hellenisms like spodium (> Grk. σπούδιον) > Alb. shpuz ‘embers’, Ro. spuză.

    4) Latin loans preserved only in Albanian. In Mihăescu's opinion, the 85 items he counted are especially useful for knowledge of Latin and help determine the territory and the date of the influence of the Roman culture on the ancestors of the Albanians. In referring to Jokl, he remarked that the basic agricultural terminology of the ancient Albanians is clearly Latin, for example, apparamentum 'provision' > parmendë 'plough', *hibernium (cf.. hibernus 'wintery') > vërri 'winter pasture'. Flora and fauna terms in this group according to Mihăescu are mainly Mediterranean or refer at least to humid territories, as, for example, olivaster > ullashtër 'wild olive-tree', catta > gatë 'heron'. Additional information comes from religious terms, which, being partially pre-Christian, turned into Christian ones and followed without interruption the western (Roman) Church, while the ancestors of the Romanians oriented themselves by the Byzantine model, for example, Lat. Saturni dies > Alb. e shtunë 'Saturday' (≠ Ro. sâmbătă), Lat. Christi natale > kërshëndella ‘Christmas’ (≠ Ro. Crăciun, etymology unclear).

    In his final summary, Mihăescu listed words from several parts of speech showing that Albanian borrowed from Classical Latin, whereas the corresponding Romanian terms go back to Vulgar Latin. Among the Albanian borrowings he cited alterare > ndërronj ‘to change’, gaudimentum > gazmend ‘joy’, caltha ‘marigold, violet’ > i, e kaltër ‘blue’, ingratus > i, e ngratë ‘pitiable’, showing according to the author that it would be a fallacy to suppose that the Latin elements of Romanian and Albanian have a common “Balkan Latin” source. In his opinion, Roman influence spread on the Balkans along different tracks.

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    This paper seems to just be a reboot of Mihaescu's work.

    Noel Malcolm and other scholars have criticized Mihaescu's attempts greatly:

    "Earlier studies linked Albanian exclusively with Romanian; more recent ones have tried to prise them apart, especially if written by Albanians trying to keep Albanian origins in Albania, or Romanians trying to keep Romanian origins in Romania

    Mihaescu uses Latin Christian vocabulary in Albanian to emphasize its divergence from Romanian, but this is highly misleading:
    Romanian has a different vocabulary here simply because Romanians were later brought under the Orthodox Church."

    Link:http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/nm/kosovo.html

    This is clear also in the fact that Romanian has proto-Albanian loanwords, necessitating close contacts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Destined View Post
    This paper seems to just be a reboot of Mihaescu's work.

    Noel Malcolm and other scholars have criticized Mihaescu's attempts greatly:

    "Earlier studies linked Albanian exclusively with Romanian; more recent ones have tried to prise them apart, especially if written by Albanians trying to keep Albanian origins in Albania, or Romanians trying to keep Romanian origins in Romania

    Mihaescu uses Latin Christian vocabulary in Albanian to emphasize its divergence from Romanian, but this is highly misleading:
    Romanian has a different vocabulary here simply because Romanians were later brought under the Orthodox Church."

    Link:http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/nm/kosovo.html

    This is clear also in the fact that Romanian has proto-Albanian loanwords, necessitating close contacts.
    Sure, an analysis based purely on religious terminology would be misleading as other factors must be taken into account, however, the arguments are not solely based on religious terminology. It is quite clear that there are some key differences in the Latin lexicon of Albanian and Romanian (as well as other Romance languages), especially surrounding the lexicon that is not shared with Romanian but with other Romance languages, as well as the conservation of archaic Latin loanwords and linguistic developments that predate the regionalisation of Latin and any contact with Balkan Romance. I do not think this necessarily contradicts historical contacts between the Proto-Albanians and Proto-Romanians, only that such contacts represent a later phenomena and strata of Latin influence.

    Also, further evidence needs to be presented suggesting that the (proto-)Romanians did not originally orientate themselves towards the Byzantine Church as the core Christian lexicon is noticeably different from that of Albanian.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 12-06-2022 at 07:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Sure, an analysis based purely on religious terminology would be misleading as other factors must be taken into account, however, the arguments are not solely based on religious terminology. It is quite clear that there are some key differences in the Latin lexicon of Albanian and Romanian (as well as other Romance languages), especially surrounding the lexicon that is not shared with Romanian but with other Romance languages, as well as the conservation of archaic Latin loanwords and linguistic developments that predate the regionalisation of Latin and any contact with Balkan Romance. I do not think this necessarily contradicts historical contacts between the Proto-Albanians and Proto-Romanians, only that such contacts represent a later phenomena and strata of Latin influence.

    Also, further evidence needs to be presented suggesting that the (proto-)Romanians did not originally orientate themselves towards the Byzantine Church as the core Christian lexicon is noticeably different from that of Albanian.
    Do you have a link to the full paper? It seems to be behind paywall.

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    Did they mention when the Thracians (romania ) began to use Latin and what did they speak before this change to Latin based language ?


    and

    all the Italian regional languages derive part of their language from vulgar-Latin .....except the youngest language , Italian ..............created in the 13th century by Dante and modified in the 16th century by Pietro Bembo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    In view of the absence of historical documents, the discussion on these questions largely depends on the characteristics of the (reconstructed) languages, which in the case of Albanian even concerns the central question of their Illyrian or Thracian heritage. In addition to some terms going back to a common Balkan or even Mediterranean substrate... the main question is, whether Albanian borrowings from non-classical Latin can be derived from Proto-Romanian (or eastern Balkan Latin) or whether Albanian has common characteristics only with Dalmatian (western Balkan Latin). In any case, possible contacts with Romanians do not concern the oldest layer of Latin influences on Albanian, as they go back to times when only the coast was Romanized and not the central Balkan areas. What is more, Albanian has preserved Latin characteristics that did not survive in any Romance language, that is, from before the regionalization of Latin, or at least may be found elsewhere only in very conservative varieties; see, for example, the preservation of Latin k, g before front vowels Albanian has in common with Sardinian varieties, the conservation of the neuter in Latin borrowings or archaic Latin lexemes like ōs 'mouth' > Alb. vesh 'ear', vetus, veteris > Alb. i vjetër 'old', where Romance languages, including Romanian, show only derivations...
    [/I]
    It is evident that the formation of the Proto-Romanian speakers involves a later and different procedure than that which involved the first contacts of Latin language with Albanian.

    In simpler terms, while a part of the Proto-Romanian population definitely came from Proto-Albanians who shifted to Latin, this group represents only a part of the Proto-Romanians and it is clear that the region where Proto-Romanians lived while south of the Danube was essentially different and to the east of the area of Proto-Albanians meaning that the easternmost area where Albanian could be spoken in a more or less compact manner is Naissus and even that is quite doubtful in terms of compactness.

    Mihaescu's work goes way beyond Malcolm's criticism which is rather restricted and quite outdated.

    Some other interesting parts from Breu (2022):

    As for consonant clusters the most important case is the integration of ancient Latin borrowings with ct [kt], which had three different results in Albanian, ft, jt, t, without any clear conditions for the individual developments (Çabej, 1976, p. 54). So, Albanian has ft (< pt) contrary to Romanian (and Dalmatian) pt and assimilated tt in Italian, for example, in luftë ‘war’ ← Lat. lucta, versus Ro. luptă, It. lotta. However, it has jt ← ct as in Alb. drejt ‘straight, right’ ← Lat. directu‑, versus Ro. drept, It. dritto, contrary to later integrations like t ← ct in Alb. fryt (≠ frujt in older times) ‘fruit’ ← Lat. fructu-, versus Ro. frupt, It. frutto. The Latin cluster ks (x) did not have uniform results either, resulting, for example, in Alb. kofshë ‘thigh’ ← Lat. coxa, versus Ro. coapsă, It. coscia, but Alb. frashër ‘ash’ ← Lat. fraxinu-, versus Ro. frasin, It. frassino.

    When Proto-Albanian borrowed words with originally velar consonants from classical Latin, they still had kept their pronunciation before front vowels, contrary to their palatalization in most modern Romance languages, with the exception of Sardinian. Only afterward did an internal palatalization before front vowels occur in Albanian, both in inherited words and in loanwords: k, g > kʲ, gʲ / V[-back]. Well-known examples in modern Albanian, going back to this sound change, are Lat. caelum ‘sky’ → Alb. qiell, centum ‘100’ → qind. It is a problem for historical linguistics that the same happened to be the case in southern Balkan-Romance varieties (Dalmatian, Liburnian).10 As a consequence, it often remains unclear if Albanian in such cases borrowed directly from Latin before the corresponding internal change, for example, Italian k, g > [tʃ], [dʒ] /V[–back], or only afterward from one of its Balkan vernaculars, differing in this respect from western Romance. Latin borrowings of the older layer have preserved a very conservative form of Latin, often found in Albanian alone, sometimes accompanied by peripheral Romance varieties like Sardinian, Romanian, or other forms of Balkan Romance.

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  10. #7
    Some Albanian G25 coords I found on another site, I don't know if these are the same as Davidski

    ALBANIAN CHAMS (N2)
    Albanian_Cham_Epirus:1,0.119614,0.153245,0.007600,-0.032036,0.022047,-0.009384,0.002582,0.001013,0.002790,0.024329,-0.001092,0.005550,-0.011882,0.002253,-0.012164,-0.002152,0.007860,0.000664,0.006888,-0.003668,-0.004054,-0.000623,-0.000740,-0.000611,-0.002113
    Albanian_Cham_Epirus:2,0.124238,0.152866,0.016539,-0.017657,0.027070,-0.003615,0.004038,0.001804,0.001418,0.019130,-0.002638,0.004462,-0.008171,0.010438,-0.012397,-0.001980,0.007184,0.000870,0.008105,-0.004431,-0.001657,-0.004357,-0.000178,-0.002791,0.001108

    ALBANIAN GHEGS(N10)

    AlbanianGheg:1,0.122929,0.136081,0.015085,-0.016796,0.026159,0.003068,0.00517,0.006692,-0.009408,0.012392,0.003248,-0.001049,-0.00223,0.003991,-0.017915,-0.006497,0.006258,0.000887,0.008799,-0.003126,-0.003868,-0.002597,0.002095,-0.003494,-0.001317
    AlbanianGheg:2,0.124067,0.147252,0.016216,-0.024871,0.023697,-0.010319,0.00329,-0.001154,0.005113,0.019499,-0.001624,0.002997,-0.01115,0.011423,-0.027416,-0.011933,0.002999,0.009375,0.009176,-0.014257,-0.004742,0.003833,0.001725,0.001205,-0.003952
    AlbanianGheg:3,0.119514,0.137096,0.012822,-0.008398,0.02739,-0.003904,0.0047,0,0.003886,0.017312,0.003897,0.003 897,-0.003122,0.00578,-0.020494,-0.003182,0.004303,-0.004814,0.004525,0.001126,0.00287,-0.004081,0.005669,0.006748,0.002994
    AlbanianGheg:4,0.122929,0.141159,0.017725,-0.010013,0.031698,-0.008367,0.004465,0.006,0.006954,0.015308,0.007145 ,-0.006294,-0.005946,0.011698,-0.016829,-0.008751,0.000652,0.004561,0.007919,-0.005378,0.002995,0.001607,-0.000739,0.001566,0.002155
    AlbanianGheg:5,0.126344,0.14319,0.017725,-0.01938,0.022158,-0.006136,0.003055,0.000923,-0.002045,0.013303,0.000812,0.000749,-0.008474,0.013487,-0.015472,0.000796,0.007953,-0.002407,0.00817,-0.010505,-0.011729,0.000247,0.001109,0.002048,-0.007664
    AlbanianGheg:6,0.122929,0.150298,0.021873,-0.01938,0.035083,-0.006972,0.00376,0.004384,0.003886,0.019864,-0.003573,0.009292,-0.003717,0.007707,-0.020358,-0.012463,0.00691,0.002787,0.005154,-0.005253,-0.004118,0.002473,0.000123,-0.000361,0.000958
    AlbanianGheg:7,0.12862,0.141159,0.018479,-0.017119,0.028313,-0.01506,0.000235,0.001846,0.004909,0.022051,0.0004 87,-0.001349,-0.005352,0.008945,-0.018594,-0.000265,0.01017,0.006841,0.004148,-0.009505,-0.012728,0.000742,-0.003821,0.002651,-0.002515
    AlbanianGheg:8,0.122929,0.146236,0.021119,-0.017442,0.022158,-0.011156,0.000235,-0.004846,-0.005318,0.019317,-0.006983,0.001199,-0.013231,-0.004266,-0.021308,-0.004375,0.01369,0.002534,0.003897,-0.010005,-0.010357,-0.002844,0.012448,0.006627,-0.005508
    AlbanianGheg:9,0.120652,0.147252,0.017725,-0.017442,0.02462,-0.003626,0.00799,0.003692,-0.003477,0.016219,0.000162,0.004646,-0.009217,0.00812,-0.017508,-0.003182,0.013038,-0.0019,0.007039,-0.008754,-0.009234,0.001113,0.000616,0.009278,-0.00491
    AlbanianGheg:10,0.132035,0.146236,0.013953,-0.013243,0.022158,-0.006136,0.004935,-0.000692,0.003681,0.019499,0.001137,0.003147,-0.003419,0.003716,-0.011129,0.010209,0.023991,0.00076,0.007919,-0.003752,-0.009982,0.000495,0.006655,0.006025,-0.003832

    ALBANIAN TOSKS

    AlbanianTosk:1,0.125205,0.148267,0.012068,-0.029716,0.022773,-0.010877,0.00188,0.005538,0.005522,0.022233,0.0009 74,0.002398,-0.002676,0.003578,-0.025787,-0.009149,0.013951,0.001394,0.002514,-0.010755,-0.010232,0.001607,0.003328,0.010122,-0.008023
    AlbanianTosk:2,0.119514,0.137096,0.018856,-0.016473,0.022158,-0.004462,-0.001175,-0.002308,0.002454,0.026606,-0.00682,0.005095,-0.002973,0.007432,-0.020087,0.001724,0.022556,0.000253,0.005908,-0.001626,-0.015722,-0.00136,0.003697,0.005543,-0.008143
    AlbanianTosk:3,0.119514,0.139128,0.018856,-0.016473,0.019388,-0.000558,0,0.000462,0.00409,0.018224,-0.001786,0.001948,-0.003122,0.000275,-0.015472,0.006099,0.026338,0.00076,0.005154,0.0018 76,-0.01123,-0.000618,0.006286,0.004579,-0.001437
    AlbanianTosk:4,0.118376,0.146236,0.016593,-0.021964,0.023697,-0.01004,0.001645,-0.000462,0.002659,0.021686,0.001137,0.002997,-0.008325,0.013762,-0.021308,-0.002652,0.018254,0.002027,0.01345,-0.007128,-0.012104,-0.001731,0.002342,-0.001205,-0.00479
    AlbanianTosk:5,0.1161,0.144205,0.010182,-0.029716,0.032929,-0.013666,-0.001175,0.003923,0.002045,0.02041,0.00682,0.00809 3,-0.006987,0.003716,-0.023615,-0.003182,0.005737,0.003041,0.009553,-0.008879,-0.006738,0.006801,0.001232,0.009881,-0.00467
    AlbanianTosk:6,0.118376,0.137096,0.022627,-0.008398,0.021235,-0.01255,0.008225,0.006461,-0.00634,0.007836,-0.002923,0.005245,0.003865,0.007019,-0.029587,-0.001458,0.011474,0.003421,0.006034,-0.01088,-0.009982,-0.001855,0.001972,-0.000964,-0.004191
    AlbanianTosk:7,0.10927,0.147252,0.013953,-0.021641,0.023697,-0.009761,0.006345,0.005769,-0.005522,0.013485,-0.005846,-0.001798,-0.016799,0.004817,-0.019137,0.003447,0.013299,-0.004054,0.01433,-0.001251,-0.008235,0.002349,0.003328,0.006145,0.001078
    AlbanianTosk:8,0.129822,0.157897,0.022454,-0.014263,0.026007,-0.002865,-0.000510,0.006159,0.006370,0.010975,0.006038,-0.000932,0.002961,-0.000332,-0.001709,-0.000515,-0.000643,-0.002093,-0.002788,0.000293,-0.001140,-0.001247,0.001166,-0.001144,-0.000293
    AlbanianTosk:9,0.128591,0.160120,0.017571,-0.023597,0.025805,-0.006443,-0.001808,0.005497,0.006939,0.018709,0.004539,0.001 876,-0.001943,-0.001909,-0.003005,-0.002475,0.001936,-0.003215,-0.004627,-0.001617,-0.002315,-0.003902,0.001536,-0.004888,0.000398
    AlbanianTosk:10,0.131988,0.156908,0.022388,-0.008161,0.021240,0.000644,0.002289,0.006034,-0.003071,0.003849,0.005326,0.000097,0.000725,-0.000751,-0.000869,-0.000417,0.000122,-0.002186,-0.002986,-0.001408,-0.002101,-0.001737,0.001485,-0.002676,-0.000377
    AlbanianTosk:11,0.101208,0.156088,0.014272,-0.025346,0.023370,-0.007520,-0.001344,0.004444,0.011911,0.012631,0.005904,-0.001320,0.004311,-0.000300,-0.001779,-0.000701,-0.000428,-0.002092,-0.003046,0.000842,-0.000927,-0.001547,0.001115,-0.001077,-0.000068
    AlbanianTosk:12,0.127237,0.154396,0.017265,-0.026271,0.022930,-0.008997,-0.002385,0.006381,0.010316,0.016904,0.006029,-0.000929,0.003519,-0.000567,-0.003851,-0.001474,0.000437,-0.002710,-0.003644,0.000585,-0.001573,-0.002757,0.001331,-0.002585,0.000179
    AlbanianTosk:13,0.126912,0.150836,0.015696,-0.017388,0.023014,-0.004442,-0.005567,0.002598,0.011098,0.014807,0.007376,-0.001557,0.004592,0.000639,-0.003929,-0.001124,0.000253,-0.002569,-0.003373,0.000750,-0.001474,-0.001854,0.001370,-0.001780,-0.000059

    ALBANIAN MONTENEGRO

    AlbanianMontenegro:1,0.126344,0.141159,0.022627,-0.008721,0.023389,0.003347,0.002115,0.003231,0.007 772,0.018588,-0.004222,0.001049,-0.007433,0.012524,-0.016286,-0.001591,0.009127,0.002534,0.008547,-0.007128,-0.013476,0.000618,0.005916,-0.001687,-0.003473
    AlbanianMontenegro:2,0.132017,0.155610,0.027043,-0.004536,0.024580,0.001662,0.002329,0.007931,-0.001086,0.001103,0.009831,-0.001725,0.004807,0.002070,-0.005711,-0.002076,0.002390,-0.003350,-0.004247,-0.001093,-0.003898,-0.002428,0.002437,-0.004505,-0.000569
    AlbanianMontenegro:3,0.131003,0.155348,0.025236,-0.008127,0.025420,0.000028,0.001461,0.006492,0.001 509,0.007910,0.006547,0.000090,0.001038,0.000203,-0.003088,-0.001783,0.000959,-0.002466,-0.002972,-0.001107,-0.002302,-0.001984,0.001644,-0.002331,-0.000143
    AlbanianMontenegro:4,0.130832,0.157408,0.024402,-0.010786,0.025948,-0.001300,0.000386,0.006424,0.004244,0.009036,0.006 124,-0.000619,0.002300,-0.000307,-0.001837,-0.000765,-0.000170,-0.002230,-0.002966,-0.000223,-0.001568,-0.001458,0.001328,-0.001774,-0.000321
    AlbanianMontenegro:5,0.131034,0.158184,0.023867,-0.011779,0.025769,-0.001600,0.000319,0.005983,0.003756,0.010982,0.004 480,0.000567,-0.000100,-0.001576,-0.000572,-0.000718,-0.000199,-0.002187,-0.003142,-0.000796,-0.001385,-0.001843,0.001152,-0.002330,-0.000170
    AlbanianMontenegro:6,0.133053,0.156474,0.031067,-0.002723,0.028583,0.001946,0.001838,0.007179,0.002 134,0.007792,0.005893,0.000652,-0.000250,-0.000709,-0.002163,-0.001788,0.001137,-0.002664,-0.003610,-0.001425,-0.002447,-0.002206,0.001623,-0.003492,-0.000255
    AlbanianMontenegro:7,0.131819,0.154000,0.031913,-0.001412,0.029104,0.002418,0.002088,0.006931,0.001 989,0.009106,0.005168,0.001478,-0.001897,-0.001036,-0.001988,-0.002205,0.001314,-0.002560,-0.003352,-0.001813,-0.002365,-0.002330,0.001546,-0.003300,-0.000081
    AlbanianMontenegro:8,0.130124,0.157079,0.026826,-0.007662,0.026589,-0.000346,0.000139,0.006309,0.005695,0.007694,0.004 198,-0.001203,0.002821,-0.001843,0.002016,0.001420,-0.002589,-0.001414,-0.002453,0.000808,-0.000094,-0.000093,0.000604,-0.000466,-0.000739

    ALBANIAN KOSOVARS

    AlbanianKosovo:1,0.125205,0.138112,0.007165,-0.014535,0.028005,-0.003904,0.003525,0.006461,0.000205,0.017312,-0.006983,0.007493,-0.003568,-0.001239,-0.02823,0.014452,0.027902,-0.004054,-0.001634,0.002001,-0.00287,0.003586,-0.002218,0.002892,-0.006107
    AlbanianKosovo:2,0.130897,0.148267,0.015085,-0.019703,0.018773,-0.012271,-0.00047,-0.002538,0.000205,0.023691,0,0.006294,-0.00446,0.005092,-0.020765,-0.002917,0.006258,-0.000633,0.010307,-0.005127,-0.013601,0.004204,0.003451,0.007471,-0.001796
    AlbanianKosovo:3,0.121791,0.142174,0.026021,-0.000646,0.032314,-0.007251,0.00611,0.006,-0.000614,0.020957,0.001786,0.004196,-0.003568,0.010735,-0.019815,0.00358,0.011474,-0.001774,0.008673,-0.004752,-0.011105,0.00371,-0.001602,0.003374,-0.002634
    AlbanianKosovo:4,0.132968,0.158691,0.026257,-0.009498,0.027380,-0.000776,0.000747,0.007172,0.004085,0.008500,0.008 147,-0.000844,0.003086,0.001053,-0.004579,-0.002097,0.001367,-0.002854,-0.003475,-0.000580,-0.002647,-0.002114,0.001878,-0.002729,-0.000234
    AlbanianKosovo:5,0.127571,0.158200,0.021528,-0.016449,0.025777,-0.003973,-0.001577,0.005929,0.008211,0.011830,0.004270,-0.001033,0.002867,-0.002071,0.001034,0.000993,-0.001865,-0.001914,-0.003330,0.000796,-0.000368,-0.001021,0.000724,-0.001739,-0.000533


    ALBANIANS NORTH MACEDONIA

    AlbanianNorthMacedonia:1,0.124067,0.145221,0.01885 6,-0.011628,0.020619,-0.008367,0.0047,-0.002077,-0.000614,0.018224,-0.000325,0.013188,-0.002825,0.00055,-0.021851,0.002784,0.031292,-0.004434,0.012193,-0.005753,-0.010606,-0.001237,0.002835,0.003133,-0.006586
    AlbanianNorthMacedonia:2,0.118376,0.135065,0.02338 1,-0.01615,0.032314,-0.011992,0,0.000231,0.00225,0.012757,0.001461,0.00 1049,-0.004311,0.003578,-0.016558,0.010077,0.022035,-0.004561,0.002514,-0.00025,-0.002371,0.002226,0.008627,0.002289,-0.000838
    AlbanianNorthMacedonia:3,0.128545,0.144117,0.01860 0,-0.015911,0.025465,-0.000379,0.000743,0.005838,-0.000151,0.007162,0.005973,-0.000223,0.001696,-0.000055,-0.003056,-0.001317,0.001298,-0.002862,-0.003979,-0.001400,-0.002534,-0.002131,0.002004,-0.003744,0.000112
    AlbanianNorthMacedonia:4,0.127889,0.154564,0.01955 6,-0.011358,0.028233,-0.008536,-0.000727,0.006944,0.006214,0.008841,0.008012,-0.001857,0.005025,0.000497,-0.003389,-0.000844,0.000374,-0.002774,-0.003885,0.000462,-0.002095,-0.001847,0.001539,-0.002910,-0.000514
    AlbanianNorthMacedonia:5,0.131095,0.156685,0.03200 5,-0.006723,0.032928,-0.000617,-0.000390,0.007874,0.010168,0.011897,0.008162,-0.001108,0.003527,0.000765,-0.004428,-0.002208,0.001064,-0.002896,-0.003732,0.000233,-0.002191,-0.001847,0.001667,-0.002572,-0.000307
    AlbanianNorthMacedonia:6,0.091794,0.150398,0.01899 8,-0.022030,0.024903,-0.007531,-0.001301,-0.002311,0.020174,0.008127,0.003566,0.001007,-0.000300,-0.001611,-0.000146,-0.002220,0.001151,-0.002023,-0.003295,-0.000489,-0.001341,-0.002225,0.001081,-0.002385,0.000389
    AlbanianNorthMacedonia:7,0.129784,0.159313,0.01972 2,-0.017508,0.024564,-0.004010,-0.000856,0.006088,0.005995,0.010692,0.006496,-0.001268,0.003756,-0.000115,-0.002194,-0.000453,-0.000415,-0.002294,-0.003125,0.000324,-0.001384,-0.001500,0.001296,-0.001657,-0.000314
    AlbanianNorthMacedonia:8,0.127913,0.153143,0.02037 9,-0.021603,0.023775,-0.007236,-0.001712,0.006911,0.010032,0.014014,0.007025,-0.001817,0.005128,0.000266,-0.004149,-0.001267,0.000104,-0.002539,-0.003237,0.001037,-0.001542,-0.002100,0.001373,-0.001772,-0.000032

    ALBANIAN ARBERESHE ITALY

    AlbanianArberesh_Italy:1,0.124067,0.141159,0.02111 9,-0.01615,0.029544,-0.005299,0.00423,0.001385,0.000818,0.02278,0.00292 3,0.005245,-0.016055,-0.005092,-0.018187,0.004641,0.026468,0.000633,0.011313,-0.007003,-0.007736,0.008532,0.001849,0.006507,-0.007784
    AlbanianArberesh_Italy:2,0.122929,0.149283,0.00414 8,-0.024548,0.029236,-0.011156,0.003055,0.001846,0.007772,0.012757,0.000 812,0.002098,-0.005203,0.009358,-0.015472,-0.009149,-0.006258,0.004561,0.013324,-0.011255,-0.004866,0.002226,0.005176,-0.003615,-0.006586
    AlbanianArberesh_Italy:3,0.117238,0.147252,0.01357 6,-0.023256,0.02185,-0.009761,0.00047,0.002308,0.005727,0.021322,0.0009 74,0.001199,-0.005203,0.012386,-0.016694,-0.004641,0.014603,0.00076,0.005279,-0.005253,-0.012228,-0.001607,0.000986,0.000964,-0.000838
    AlbanianArberesh_Italy:4,0.121791,0.139128,0.02036 5,-0.010659,0.020927,-0.003626,0.000235,-0.003,0.000614,0.011299,0.001949,-0.001349,-0.005798,0.011836,-0.013436,-0.01538,-0.009127,0.002787,0.007919,-0.007253,-0.001996,-0.001237,0.002835,-0.001325,0.000359
    AlbanianArberesh_Italy:5,0.103579,0.141159,0.01885 6,-0.011951,0.028313,-0.00502,0.00141,-0.002769,0,0.01713,0.001624,0.004196,-0.009366,0.00289,-0.014115,0.000663,0.005998,0,0.006159,-0.006128,-0.006364,0.004204,0.001602,0.007832,-0.004431
    AlbanianArberesh_Italy:6,0.111547,0.137096,0.01018 2,-0.013889,0.018157,-0.012271,-0.001175,-0.001846,-0.001636,0.022415,0.001137,0.004196,-0.008176,0.003165,-0.022258,0.002387,0.026859,-0.000127,0.004777,-0.000625,-0.012603,-0.00272,0.002588,0.00482,-0.007784
    Last edited by Albanoi; 12-07-2022 at 03:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albanoi View Post
    Some Albanian G25 coords I found on another site, I don't know if these are the same as Davidski
    Where did you find them?

    I strongly suspect that these are a mix of G25 sims and straight up made up coords.

    We now have a much bigger official G25 dataset so it's best to restrict yourself to using that + G25 coords of people whom you personally know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albanoi View Post
    Some Albanian G25 coords I found on another site, I don't know if these are the same as Davidski

    ALBANIAN CHAMS (N2)
    Albanian_Cham_Epirus:1,0.119614,0.153245,0.007600,-0.032036,0.022047,-0.009384,0.002582,0.001013,0.002790,0.024329,-0.001092,0.005550,-0.011882,0.002253,-0.012164,-0.002152,0.007860,0.000664,0.006888,-0.003668,-0.004054,-0.000623,-0.000740,-0.000611,-0.002113
    Albanian_Cham_Epirus:2,0.124238,0.152866,0.016539,-0.017657,0.027070,-0.003615,0.004038,0.001804,0.001418,0.019130,-0.002638,0.004462,-0.008171,0.010438,-0.012397,-0.001980,0.007184,0.000870,0.008105,-0.004431,-0.001657,-0.004357,-0.000178,-0.002791,0.001108

    ALBANIAN GHEGS(N10)

    AlbanianGheg:1,0.122929,0.136081,0.015085,-0.016796,0.026159,0.003068,0.00517,0.006692,-0.009408,0.012392,0.003248,-0.001049,-0.00223,0.003991,-0.017915,-0.006497,0.006258,0.000887,0.008799,-0.003126,-0.003868,-0.002597,0.002095,-0.003494,-0.001317
    AlbanianGheg:2,0.124067,0.147252,0.016216,-0.024871,0.023697,-0.010319,0.00329,-0.001154,0.005113,0.019499,-0.001624,0.002997,-0.01115,0.011423,-0.027416,-0.011933,0.002999,0.009375,0.009176,-0.014257,-0.004742,0.003833,0.001725,0.001205,-0.003952
    AlbanianGheg:3,0.119514,0.137096,0.012822,-0.008398,0.02739,-0.003904,0.0047,0,0.003886,0.017312,0.003897,0.003 897,-0.003122,0.00578,-0.020494,-0.003182,0.004303,-0.004814,0.004525,0.001126,0.00287,-0.004081,0.005669,0.006748,0.002994
    AlbanianGheg:4,0.122929,0.141159,0.017725,-0.010013,0.031698,-0.008367,0.004465,0.006,0.006954,0.015308,0.007145 ,-0.006294,-0.005946,0.011698,-0.016829,-0.008751,0.000652,0.004561,0.007919,-0.005378,0.002995,0.001607,-0.000739,0.001566,0.002155
    AlbanianGheg:5,0.126344,0.14319,0.017725,-0.01938,0.022158,-0.006136,0.003055,0.000923,-0.002045,0.013303,0.000812,0.000749,-0.008474,0.013487,-0.015472,0.000796,0.007953,-0.002407,0.00817,-0.010505,-0.011729,0.000247,0.001109,0.002048,-0.007664
    AlbanianGheg:6,0.122929,0.150298,0.021873,-0.01938,0.035083,-0.006972,0.00376,0.004384,0.003886,0.019864,-0.003573,0.009292,-0.003717,0.007707,-0.020358,-0.012463,0.00691,0.002787,0.005154,-0.005253,-0.004118,0.002473,0.000123,-0.000361,0.000958
    AlbanianGheg:7,0.12862,0.141159,0.018479,-0.017119,0.028313,-0.01506,0.000235,0.001846,0.004909,0.022051,0.0004 87,-0.001349,-0.005352,0.008945,-0.018594,-0.000265,0.01017,0.006841,0.004148,-0.009505,-0.012728,0.000742,-0.003821,0.002651,-0.002515
    AlbanianGheg:8,0.122929,0.146236,0.021119,-0.017442,0.022158,-0.011156,0.000235,-0.004846,-0.005318,0.019317,-0.006983,0.001199,-0.013231,-0.004266,-0.021308,-0.004375,0.01369,0.002534,0.003897,-0.010005,-0.010357,-0.002844,0.012448,0.006627,-0.005508
    AlbanianGheg:9,0.120652,0.147252,0.017725,-0.017442,0.02462,-0.003626,0.00799,0.003692,-0.003477,0.016219,0.000162,0.004646,-0.009217,0.00812,-0.017508,-0.003182,0.013038,-0.0019,0.007039,-0.008754,-0.009234,0.001113,0.000616,0.009278,-0.00491
    AlbanianGheg:10,0.132035,0.146236,0.013953,-0.013243,0.022158,-0.006136,0.004935,-0.000692,0.003681,0.019499,0.001137,0.003147,-0.003419,0.003716,-0.011129,0.010209,0.023991,0.00076,0.007919,-0.003752,-0.009982,0.000495,0.006655,0.006025,-0.003832

    ALBANIAN TOSKS

    AlbanianTosk:1,0.125205,0.148267,0.012068,-0.029716,0.022773,-0.010877,0.00188,0.005538,0.005522,0.022233,0.0009 74,0.002398,-0.002676,0.003578,-0.025787,-0.009149,0.013951,0.001394,0.002514,-0.010755,-0.010232,0.001607,0.003328,0.010122,-0.008023
    AlbanianTosk:2,0.119514,0.137096,0.018856,-0.016473,0.022158,-0.004462,-0.001175,-0.002308,0.002454,0.026606,-0.00682,0.005095,-0.002973,0.007432,-0.020087,0.001724,0.022556,0.000253,0.005908,-0.001626,-0.015722,-0.00136,0.003697,0.005543,-0.008143
    AlbanianTosk:3,0.119514,0.139128,0.018856,-0.016473,0.019388,-0.000558,0,0.000462,0.00409,0.018224,-0.001786,0.001948,-0.003122,0.000275,-0.015472,0.006099,0.026338,0.00076,0.005154,0.0018 76,-0.01123,-0.000618,0.006286,0.004579,-0.001437
    AlbanianTosk:4,0.118376,0.146236,0.016593,-0.021964,0.023697,-0.01004,0.001645,-0.000462,0.002659,0.021686,0.001137,0.002997,-0.008325,0.013762,-0.021308,-0.002652,0.018254,0.002027,0.01345,-0.007128,-0.012104,-0.001731,0.002342,-0.001205,-0.00479
    AlbanianTosk:5,0.1161,0.144205,0.010182,-0.029716,0.032929,-0.013666,-0.001175,0.003923,0.002045,0.02041,0.00682,0.00809 3,-0.006987,0.003716,-0.023615,-0.003182,0.005737,0.003041,0.009553,-0.008879,-0.006738,0.006801,0.001232,0.009881,-0.00467
    AlbanianTosk:6,0.118376,0.137096,0.022627,-0.008398,0.021235,-0.01255,0.008225,0.006461,-0.00634,0.007836,-0.002923,0.005245,0.003865,0.007019,-0.029587,-0.001458,0.011474,0.003421,0.006034,-0.01088,-0.009982,-0.001855,0.001972,-0.000964,-0.004191
    AlbanianTosk:7,0.10927,0.147252,0.013953,-0.021641,0.023697,-0.009761,0.006345,0.005769,-0.005522,0.013485,-0.005846,-0.001798,-0.016799,0.004817,-0.019137,0.003447,0.013299,-0.004054,0.01433,-0.001251,-0.008235,0.002349,0.003328,0.006145,0.001078
    AlbanianTosk:8,0.129822,0.157897,0.022454,-0.014263,0.026007,-0.002865,-0.000510,0.006159,0.006370,0.010975,0.006038,-0.000932,0.002961,-0.000332,-0.001709,-0.000515,-0.000643,-0.002093,-0.002788,0.000293,-0.001140,-0.001247,0.001166,-0.001144,-0.000293
    AlbanianTosk:9,0.128591,0.160120,0.017571,-0.023597,0.025805,-0.006443,-0.001808,0.005497,0.006939,0.018709,0.004539,0.001 876,-0.001943,-0.001909,-0.003005,-0.002475,0.001936,-0.003215,-0.004627,-0.001617,-0.002315,-0.003902,0.001536,-0.004888,0.000398
    AlbanianTosk:10,0.131988,0.156908,0.022388,-0.008161,0.021240,0.000644,0.002289,0.006034,-0.003071,0.003849,0.005326,0.000097,0.000725,-0.000751,-0.000869,-0.000417,0.000122,-0.002186,-0.002986,-0.001408,-0.002101,-0.001737,0.001485,-0.002676,-0.000377
    AlbanianTosk:11,0.101208,0.156088,0.014272,-0.025346,0.023370,-0.007520,-0.001344,0.004444,0.011911,0.012631,0.005904,-0.001320,0.004311,-0.000300,-0.001779,-0.000701,-0.000428,-0.002092,-0.003046,0.000842,-0.000927,-0.001547,0.001115,-0.001077,-0.000068
    AlbanianTosk:12,0.127237,0.154396,0.017265,-0.026271,0.022930,-0.008997,-0.002385,0.006381,0.010316,0.016904,0.006029,-0.000929,0.003519,-0.000567,-0.003851,-0.001474,0.000437,-0.002710,-0.003644,0.000585,-0.001573,-0.002757,0.001331,-0.002585,0.000179
    AlbanianTosk:13,0.126912,0.150836,0.015696,-0.017388,0.023014,-0.004442,-0.005567,0.002598,0.011098,0.014807,0.007376,-0.001557,0.004592,0.000639,-0.003929,-0.001124,0.000253,-0.002569,-0.003373,0.000750,-0.001474,-0.001854,0.001370,-0.001780,-0.000059

    ALBANIAN MONTENEGRO

    AlbanianMontenegro:1,0.126344,0.141159,0.022627,-0.008721,0.023389,0.003347,0.002115,0.003231,0.007 772,0.018588,-0.004222,0.001049,-0.007433,0.012524,-0.016286,-0.001591,0.009127,0.002534,0.008547,-0.007128,-0.013476,0.000618,0.005916,-0.001687,-0.003473
    AlbanianMontenegro:2,0.132017,0.155610,0.027043,-0.004536,0.024580,0.001662,0.002329,0.007931,-0.001086,0.001103,0.009831,-0.001725,0.004807,0.002070,-0.005711,-0.002076,0.002390,-0.003350,-0.004247,-0.001093,-0.003898,-0.002428,0.002437,-0.004505,-0.000569
    AlbanianMontenegro:3,0.131003,0.155348,0.025236,-0.008127,0.025420,0.000028,0.001461,0.006492,0.001 509,0.007910,0.006547,0.000090,0.001038,0.000203,-0.003088,-0.001783,0.000959,-0.002466,-0.002972,-0.001107,-0.002302,-0.001984,0.001644,-0.002331,-0.000143
    AlbanianMontenegro:4,0.130832,0.157408,0.024402,-0.010786,0.025948,-0.001300,0.000386,0.006424,0.004244,0.009036,0.006 124,-0.000619,0.002300,-0.000307,-0.001837,-0.000765,-0.000170,-0.002230,-0.002966,-0.000223,-0.001568,-0.001458,0.001328,-0.001774,-0.000321
    AlbanianMontenegro:5,0.131034,0.158184,0.023867,-0.011779,0.025769,-0.001600,0.000319,0.005983,0.003756,0.010982,0.004 480,0.000567,-0.000100,-0.001576,-0.000572,-0.000718,-0.000199,-0.002187,-0.003142,-0.000796,-0.001385,-0.001843,0.001152,-0.002330,-0.000170
    AlbanianMontenegro:6,0.133053,0.156474,0.031067,-0.002723,0.028583,0.001946,0.001838,0.007179,0.002 134,0.007792,0.005893,0.000652,-0.000250,-0.000709,-0.002163,-0.001788,0.001137,-0.002664,-0.003610,-0.001425,-0.002447,-0.002206,0.001623,-0.003492,-0.000255
    AlbanianMontenegro:7,0.131819,0.154000,0.031913,-0.001412,0.029104,0.002418,0.002088,0.006931,0.001 989,0.009106,0.005168,0.001478,-0.001897,-0.001036,-0.001988,-0.002205,0.001314,-0.002560,-0.003352,-0.001813,-0.002365,-0.002330,0.001546,-0.003300,-0.000081
    AlbanianMontenegro:8,0.130124,0.157079,0.026826,-0.007662,0.026589,-0.000346,0.000139,0.006309,0.005695,0.007694,0.004 198,-0.001203,0.002821,-0.001843,0.002016,0.001420,-0.002589,-0.001414,-0.002453,0.000808,-0.000094,-0.000093,0.000604,-0.000466,-0.000739

    ALBANIAN KOSOVARS

    AlbanianKosovo:1,0.125205,0.138112,0.007165,-0.014535,0.028005,-0.003904,0.003525,0.006461,0.000205,0.017312,-0.006983,0.007493,-0.003568,-0.001239,-0.02823,0.014452,0.027902,-0.004054,-0.001634,0.002001,-0.00287,0.003586,-0.002218,0.002892,-0.006107
    AlbanianKosovo:2,0.130897,0.148267,0.015085,-0.019703,0.018773,-0.012271,-0.00047,-0.002538,0.000205,0.023691,0,0.006294,-0.00446,0.005092,-0.020765,-0.002917,0.006258,-0.000633,0.010307,-0.005127,-0.013601,0.004204,0.003451,0.007471,-0.001796
    AlbanianKosovo:3,0.121791,0.142174,0.026021,-0.000646,0.032314,-0.007251,0.00611,0.006,-0.000614,0.020957,0.001786,0.004196,-0.003568,0.010735,-0.019815,0.00358,0.011474,-0.001774,0.008673,-0.004752,-0.011105,0.00371,-0.001602,0.003374,-0.002634
    AlbanianKosovo:4,0.132968,0.158691,0.026257,-0.009498,0.027380,-0.000776,0.000747,0.007172,0.004085,0.008500,0.008 147,-0.000844,0.003086,0.001053,-0.004579,-0.002097,0.001367,-0.002854,-0.003475,-0.000580,-0.002647,-0.002114,0.001878,-0.002729,-0.000234
    AlbanianKosovo:5,0.127571,0.158200,0.021528,-0.016449,0.025777,-0.003973,-0.001577,0.005929,0.008211,0.011830,0.004270,-0.001033,0.002867,-0.002071,0.001034,0.000993,-0.001865,-0.001914,-0.003330,0.000796,-0.000368,-0.001021,0.000724,-0.001739,-0.000533


    ALBANIANS NORTH MACEDONIA

    AlbanianNorthMacedonia:1,0.124067,0.145221,0.01885 6,-0.011628,0.020619,-0.008367,0.0047,-0.002077,-0.000614,0.018224,-0.000325,0.013188,-0.002825,0.00055,-0.021851,0.002784,0.031292,-0.004434,0.012193,-0.005753,-0.010606,-0.001237,0.002835,0.003133,-0.006586
    AlbanianNorthMacedonia:2,0.118376,0.135065,0.02338 1,-0.01615,0.032314,-0.011992,0,0.000231,0.00225,0.012757,0.001461,0.00 1049,-0.004311,0.003578,-0.016558,0.010077,0.022035,-0.004561,0.002514,-0.00025,-0.002371,0.002226,0.008627,0.002289,-0.000838
    AlbanianNorthMacedonia:3,0.128545,0.144117,0.01860 0,-0.015911,0.025465,-0.000379,0.000743,0.005838,-0.000151,0.007162,0.005973,-0.000223,0.001696,-0.000055,-0.003056,-0.001317,0.001298,-0.002862,-0.003979,-0.001400,-0.002534,-0.002131,0.002004,-0.003744,0.000112
    AlbanianNorthMacedonia:4,0.127889,0.154564,0.01955 6,-0.011358,0.028233,-0.008536,-0.000727,0.006944,0.006214,0.008841,0.008012,-0.001857,0.005025,0.000497,-0.003389,-0.000844,0.000374,-0.002774,-0.003885,0.000462,-0.002095,-0.001847,0.001539,-0.002910,-0.000514
    AlbanianNorthMacedonia:5,0.131095,0.156685,0.03200 5,-0.006723,0.032928,-0.000617,-0.000390,0.007874,0.010168,0.011897,0.008162,-0.001108,0.003527,0.000765,-0.004428,-0.002208,0.001064,-0.002896,-0.003732,0.000233,-0.002191,-0.001847,0.001667,-0.002572,-0.000307
    AlbanianNorthMacedonia:6,0.091794,0.150398,0.01899 8,-0.022030,0.024903,-0.007531,-0.001301,-0.002311,0.020174,0.008127,0.003566,0.001007,-0.000300,-0.001611,-0.000146,-0.002220,0.001151,-0.002023,-0.003295,-0.000489,-0.001341,-0.002225,0.001081,-0.002385,0.000389
    AlbanianNorthMacedonia:7,0.129784,0.159313,0.01972 2,-0.017508,0.024564,-0.004010,-0.000856,0.006088,0.005995,0.010692,0.006496,-0.001268,0.003756,-0.000115,-0.002194,-0.000453,-0.000415,-0.002294,-0.003125,0.000324,-0.001384,-0.001500,0.001296,-0.001657,-0.000314
    AlbanianNorthMacedonia:8,0.127913,0.153143,0.02037 9,-0.021603,0.023775,-0.007236,-0.001712,0.006911,0.010032,0.014014,0.007025,-0.001817,0.005128,0.000266,-0.004149,-0.001267,0.000104,-0.002539,-0.003237,0.001037,-0.001542,-0.002100,0.001373,-0.001772,-0.000032

    ALBANIAN ARBERESHE ITALY

    AlbanianArberesh_Italy:1,0.124067,0.141159,0.02111 9,-0.01615,0.029544,-0.005299,0.00423,0.001385,0.000818,0.02278,0.00292 3,0.005245,-0.016055,-0.005092,-0.018187,0.004641,0.026468,0.000633,0.011313,-0.007003,-0.007736,0.008532,0.001849,0.006507,-0.007784
    AlbanianArberesh_Italy:2,0.122929,0.149283,0.00414 8,-0.024548,0.029236,-0.011156,0.003055,0.001846,0.007772,0.012757,0.000 812,0.002098,-0.005203,0.009358,-0.015472,-0.009149,-0.006258,0.004561,0.013324,-0.011255,-0.004866,0.002226,0.005176,-0.003615,-0.006586
    AlbanianArberesh_Italy:3,0.117238,0.147252,0.01357 6,-0.023256,0.02185,-0.009761,0.00047,0.002308,0.005727,0.021322,0.0009 74,0.001199,-0.005203,0.012386,-0.016694,-0.004641,0.014603,0.00076,0.005279,-0.005253,-0.012228,-0.001607,0.000986,0.000964,-0.000838
    AlbanianArberesh_Italy:4,0.121791,0.139128,0.02036 5,-0.010659,0.020927,-0.003626,0.000235,-0.003,0.000614,0.011299,0.001949,-0.001349,-0.005798,0.011836,-0.013436,-0.01538,-0.009127,0.002787,0.007919,-0.007253,-0.001996,-0.001237,0.002835,-0.001325,0.000359
    AlbanianArberesh_Italy:5,0.103579,0.141159,0.01885 6,-0.011951,0.028313,-0.00502,0.00141,-0.002769,0,0.01713,0.001624,0.004196,-0.009366,0.00289,-0.014115,0.000663,0.005998,0,0.006159,-0.006128,-0.006364,0.004204,0.001602,0.007832,-0.004431
    AlbanianArberesh_Italy:6,0.111547,0.137096,0.01018 2,-0.013889,0.018157,-0.012271,-0.001175,-0.001846,-0.001636,0.022415,0.001137,0.004196,-0.008176,0.003165,-0.022258,0.002387,0.026859,-0.000127,0.004777,-0.000625,-0.012603,-0.00272,0.002588,0.00482,-0.007784
    My impression is that Albanians altogether can hardly be distinguished from each other with some safety like lets say Northern and southern Greeks and Im wondering how much sense it makes to distinguish between them. If you compare these kits with each other Tosks are partly closer to Ghegs and vice versa. For example one of these Chams is closest to a Gheg, the other with an Arberesh. Would you agree with that conclusion?

  15. #10
    Bruzmi, I got them on a forum. I don't want to mention the forum here as it has a bad reputation in general but I could PM you the link. But you could be right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chatzianastasoglou View Post
    My impression is that Albanians altogether can hardly be distinguished from each other with some safety like lets say Northern and southern Greeks and Im wondering how much sense it makes to distinguish between them. If you compare these kits with each other Tosks are partly closer to Ghegs and vice versa. For example one of these Chams is closest to a Gheg, the other with an Arberesh. Would you agree with that conclusion?
    To me it makes a lot of sense to digstinguish since that is what people do with most ethnicities so why not Albanian also as there are people who form their own clusters, get different results etc Tosks can overlap with Ghegs but also plot more south on average, this might not be seen entirely with few samples such as the above etc but has especially been seen now that we have a lot of samples and was also seen years ago on k13 etc with a lot of samples. Idk if those samples are Arbereshe, Chams or where they are even, they could be just a bunch of fake namings since we already got Arbereshe results also from older study which showed they plot more like Tosks, Italians than Ghegs. There were also Gheg and Tosk movements south and north. People can even form their own clusters or microclusters regardless of where in Albanian areas they from but the general rule is that Ghegs plot the most north, especially Ghegs from Montenegro. There is also a core cluster where a lot of people plot from all Albanian areas. But I agree the difference compared to lets say Italy isn't huge but Italy also has a larger population and territory.
    Last edited by Albanoi; 12-07-2022 at 01:09 PM.

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