Albanian Discussion Thread

[Aspar]

I translated the article for non-Albanian speakers.

The genetic origin of Vlachs/Aromanians:

Among the linguistic minorities which have inhabited the Albanian lands, the Vlachs (or Aromanians) have undoubtedly had the widest spread. The genetic origin of the Vlachs is not only important about the history of Aromanians, but also for the history of the Balkans in general, and in particular for the history of the Albanians.

Before presenting the results, it should be mentioned that linguistic data suggest that the ancestors of the Vlachs and Romanians lived somewhere in the central Balkans, between the Jireček line and the Danube, until around the 10th century, when the ancestors of the Vlachs spread in several directions (mainly towards the south), while the ancestors of the Romanians moved later towards the north-east. The linguistic affinities between Albanians, Vlachs and Romanians have been understood by various authors as a consequence either of close relations between these groups in antiquity or the Middle Ages, or as a consequence of their common descent from a Paleo-Balkan group which was partially Latinized.

The examination of haplogroup percentages among the Vlachs is made somewhat difficult by the ambiguous or uncertain Vlach identification of some families, both in Albania and abroad. Out of over 1500 samples of members of the project, 25 recognize their paternal origin as Vlach according to their family tradition, three families are uncertain about such a connection, while another one according to its family tradition has a Vlach-Albanian identity. These four results carry: E-Y18556, I-FGC22045, J-Y226157 and R-FGC40202 and are included in the table below. [Readers] who want to examine just the results of the first group of 25 members need only remove these four results from the table.

Durrës	E-V13
Mallakastër	E-V13>Z5017>Y18556
Korçë	E-V13>Z5017>CTS9320>Z25461>BY204029
Korçë	E-V13>Z5017>CTS9320>BY4526>S10743
Kavajë	E-V13>Z5017>CTS9320>Z16988>FT17132
Korçë	E-V13>Z5017>CTS9320>Z16988>FT17132
Ersekë	E-V13>Z5017>CTS9320>Z16988>FT17132
Fier	G1-M342
Berat	I1-M253
Vlorë	I1-M253
Elbasan	I1-M253>Z58>Z2040>A480
Mallakastër	I1-M253>L22>P109>S7660>S14887>FGC22045
Pogradec	I1-M253>L22>P109>S7660>S14887>FGC22045
Vlorë	I2a-M223
Ersekë	I2a-L460>P37>M423>L621>Y3120
Lushnje	I2a-L460>P37>M423>L621>Y3120
Korçë	I2a-L460>P37>M423>L621>Y3120
Gramsh	J2a-M410>L26
Korçë	J2a-M410>M67>M92>PF7412
Korçë	J2a-M410>PF5160>L24>L25>Z387>L70
Fier	J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>PH4679>Y197646
Lushnje	J2b-L283>Z638>Z1297>Y23094>Y36202>Y226157
Sarandë	J2b-M205>CTS1969>PH234
Korçë	R1b-M269>PF7562>PF7563>Y83965
Korçë	R1b-M269>Z2103>L584>FGC14590>Y19434>FT31438
Gjirokastër	R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705>BY147912>Y264 762
Përmet	R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705>BY147912>Y264 762
Përmet	R1b-M269>Z2103>Z2108>CTS9219>BY611>Z2705>BY147912>Y264 762
Gramoz	R1b-M269>PF7562>PF7563>FGC40202

The number of samples needs to be expanded but some conclusions are clear even with the current number of samples. First, the vast majority of paternal lineages are descended from ancient Balkan tribes, similar to Albanian lines in general. The percentage of lineages of Slavic origin is a bit lower but still close (3/29, 10.3%) [to the number of such lineages among Albanians]. The absence of R1a-M417 is noticeable and should be reviewed again after more results [have been collected]. I1-M253 lineages of Germanic origin are more frequent (5/29, 17.2%) [among Vlachs] compared to the general population of Albanian regions. If this difference does not diminish with the addition of new results, it is possible that these lineages in Vlachs represent a slightly greater genetic contribution [of lineages] of Germanic tribes that were integrated into the Roman military system. Thus, regarding distant ancestry, the frequency of haplogroups clearly shows that most of the paternal ancestors of the Vlachs were in the Balkans since ancient times, while a minority settled in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages.

17/29 results can be classified with certainty in a specific subclade, [a result] which allows the calculation of their genetic distance with other samples, which in turn allows us to draw some conclusions about the Middle Ages as well. Among these 17 results there are two lineages, J-Y297646 & E-FT17132, which are related to results of Albanians respectively in the Bronze Age and in Antiquity, indicating connections between the ancestors of Albanians and Vlachs during antiquity.

The main part of Vlach lineages is connected [patrilineally] 1000-1500 years ago with Albanians and other samples from the Balkans. The lineages I-A480, I-FGC22045, J-Y226157, R-Y83965, R-Y264762 belong to this group and are related to Albanian and other Balkan results about 1000-1500 years ago. This group of lineages has an age of 1000-1500 years and a wide Balkan spread that includes Albania, Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia and in some cases Romania, North Macedonia and Montenegro. Based on their diversity and age, it seems quite clear that these paternal lines spread during the early and Middle Ages from an area of the central Balkans (likely Kosovo, northern Macedonia, southeastern Serbia). It should be added that even among Romanians there are some paternal lines of similar age and diversity, which suggests that there was a migration from the same regions to the northeast as is historically attested. Hence, in this respect, the genetic data match the linguistic data which argue for a distribution from the same area or from neighboring areas in the Middle Ages.

Regarding present-day distribution of Vlachs in Albania, due to the mobile nature of the population, it is not easy to track it accurately. However, we already have two paternal lineages, E-FT17132 and R-Y264762 which include 3 families of Vlach origin. One is found in Kavajë (according to their tradition, originating from Voskopoja), Korçë and Përmet, the other in Korçë (according to their tradition, originating from Frashër), Përmet and Gjirokastër. Thus, southeastern Albania seems to have been the area from where a substantial part of Vlachs were dispersed, which is consistent with the known historical data for the area as well as with the family traditions of some of the families of our projects' members. More results are needed to draw more detailed conclusions, therefore we urge everyone interested to perform Y-DNA testing and join the Albanian DNA Project "Rrënjët".

I'm surprised Rrenjet still haven't encountered my subclade even though going by STRs it's found almost certainly among the Frasherots from a place in Albania called Dukasi(Bosh 2006).
It's also found in around Korçë(close match on 67 STRs - FTDNA).

Hopefully it will pop up in future with more sampling...

[Technocrat]

[quotes deleted post]

There's barely any non-Albanian samples in comparison to Albanian. And some of these tests are self submitted. Overwhelming majority of tested individuals self identify as Albanian. Also, some tested are funded by members who may want to target minority groups. There's also the fact that historically some minority groups have history in Albania, so seeing how all groups relate is helpful.

[Zanatis]

There's barely any non-Albanian samples in comparison to Albanian. And some of these tests are self submitted. Overwhelming majority of tested individuals self identify as Albanian. Also, some tested are funded by members who may want to target minority groups. There's also the fact that historically some minority groups have history in Albania, so seeing how all groups relate is helpful.

Only talking about the compiling, listing, and analysing from the side of Rrenjet members on behalf of another community that doesn't even want to be part of anything Albanian.

I'd like to only read articles on various Albanian regions and tribes.

Aromanians, Bulgarians, Romani, Gorani, and Serbian members can contribute independently to their respective communities with articles.

@Oldways, it would be great if you could collect more data on the Bulgarian and Vlach speaking communities of South-Eastern Albania.

I'd like to know what haplogroups more people from Drenova and Boboshtica carry since they gave a surprisingly high contribution to the Albanian cause and Renaissance. Definitely many of them are/were Albanian not ethnic Bulgarians.

[Reset]

Here are also few Vlach results from an older project:

Vllah Kolonje Korce Shqiperi E1b-V13>CTS9320>Z16988>Z27131>BY62310
Vllah Berat Berat Shqiperi I1-M253
Vllah Fier Fier Shqiperi G1-M342
Vllah Korce Korce Shqiperi J2b-L283>Z597>Y21045

http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/

[Bruzmi]

I'm surprised Rrenjet still haven't encountered my subclade even though going by STRs it's found almost certainly among the Frasherots from a place in Albania called Dukasi(Bosh 2006).
It's also found in around Korçë(close match on 67 STRs - FTDNA).

Hopefully it will pop up in future with more sampling...

I think that it's just a matter of sampling coverage. Rrenjet has samples from many nearby villages of Dukas but not from Dukas itself yet https://rrenjet.com/harta-rrenjet/

If you have any match from this village, maybe you could suggest that he contacts the project for further testing. As far as I know, Dukas was created via movements from the Korça region so a connection makes sense.

[Reset]

I have come across a rather intriguing but confusing point made by Joachim Matzinger in his paper titled 'Messapico e illirico' (2015). If my interpretation is correct (by all means correct me if I am wrong), Matzinger argues further down in his paper (p. 62) that the linguistic development of the ancient Illyrian hydronym Barbanna (modern Bu(e)në/Bojana river) is more typical of Messapic rather than Illyrian proper. This, he argues, is due to the /o/ > /a/ sound change which he believes to be atypical of Illyrian; Barbanna allegedly being derived from *bórbā- (swamp). Scodra, for comparison, does not follow this sound change as he etymologically derives it from *skódro- (potentially meaning something akin to 'steep').

In my opinion, this seems a little confusing and questionable. Firstly, Illyrian could have easily developed the /o/ > /a/ shift while also conserving it depending on circumstance. Secondly, the Barbanna flows right past and next to Scodra, is it really possible that two completely different ethno-linguistic groups occupied the same exact area - leaving behind their own toponyms/hydronyms in the same area? Anything is possible, however, some more unlikely than others.

I also wonder if Matzinger's recent claims that Messapic expanded into coastal Illyria and then Italy are partly influenced/based on this.

Original quotation from the paper:

Da chiarire è ancora - senza entrare nei dettagli - p. es. lo sviluppo di i.e. *o (> a in messapico) per cui si trovano esempi con a (p. es. nel nome dell'affluente Buenë presso Scutari, nell'antichità chiamato Barbanna da una protoforma *bórbā- 'palude', cfr. greco βόρβορος 'fango'), ma anche esempi con o, che appare p. es. nel nome della città principale degli illiri Scutari, greco Σκόδρα, latino Scodra probabilmente da una protoforma *skódro-, cfr. lituano skardùs 'ripido'.

Yeah, Matzinger, the guy who claims Messapic was not Illyrian despite archaeology and archaeogenetics prove otherwise . I don't think he should be taken very serious. Though it's funny how the ones who try to disprove the Illyrian origin of Albanian quote this pseudo intellectual. He seems to be a leading expert in creating pseudo intellectual theories.

So Messapic was not Illyrian despite they had R1b and J-L283 branches connected to Southern Illyrians , names, culture, archaeology shows they came from Illyria, the area where they came from was actually by Pliny the Elder referred to as ''Illyrian proper'' possibly. So according to this dude, the Messapians crossed over to Italy, the Illyrians just stayed, then magically the entire area became Illyrian in the classical antiquity despite in Italy we clearly have evidence of a Illyrian/Proto-Illyrian colonization including cultures such as Cetina.

[Reset]

Looking at one tax register of South-Western Kosovo from 1452 'Vilajet of Pashtrik' , it is in Serbian: https://docplayer.net/57183612-Vilaj...53-godine.html , it is dominated by a lot of Albanian names like Lesh, Gjin, Gjon, Gjergji, Progon, Tanush, Leka,

But there is one settlement that striked me which is called 'Darda'

''Selo Darda54 Stepan, Đerđi, Niko, Mihalj, Đon, Đin, Mihalj, Đin, Đin, Đerđi, Lješ, Nikola, Đin, Jovan, Đin, Zaharije, Đin, Lješ, Mihalj, Đin.''

Most of of these are Albanian names too I believe like Gjergji, Gjon, Gjin, Lesh, Zaharije written in Serbian form.

[Kelmendasi]

Looking at one tax register of South-Western Kosovo from 1452 'Vilajet of Pashtrik' , it is in Serbian: https://docplayer.net/57183612-Vilaj...53-godine.html , it is dominated by a lot of Albanian names like Lesh, Gjin, Gjon, Gjergji, Progon, Tanush, Leka,

But there is one settlement that striked me which is called 'Darda'

''Selo Darda54 Stepan, Đerđi, Niko, Mihalj, Đon, Đin, Mihalj, Đin, Đin, Đerđi, Lješ, Nikola, Đin, Jovan, Đin, Zaharije, Đin, Lješ, Mihalj, Đin.''

Most of of these are Albanian names too I believe like Gjergji, Gjon, Gjin, Lesh, Zaharije written in Serbian form.

The vilayet of Pashtrik essentially corresponds to Hasi in north-eastern Albania and south-western Kosovo.

[Reset]

I just googled 'Zaharijie' and it seems to be a Slavic used name thought it might be related to Albanian 'Zaharija' but many others are literally Albanian names but I am using google translate so it's hard to know the Slavic forms of Albanian names , if someone can help I'd appreciate it, I noticed a lot of Progon, Lesh, Leka, Gjin, Gjergj, etc

[Reset]

The vilayet of Pashtrik essentially corresponds to Hasi in north-eastern Albania and south-western Kosovo.

One Albanian guy who speaks Serbian told me even some of the parts of South-Western Kosovo are Albanian dominated like Opoja, Prizren etc , only Gora region standing out which is still Slavic to this day. They became Muslims after Austrian-Ottoman wars 1690. But I don't know since I don't speak Serbian, only using translator. I don't know if this register includes the part from Albania too. Darda could maybe be in Albania too.

Yes, the Has region,