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Thread: I-M253 in Lebanon

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    I-M253 in Lebanon

    A Y-37 test from my grandma's paternal first cousin revealed that their paternal haplogroup is I-M253. I found this interesting because their grandfather was a Maronite Catholic from a town near the Lebanese coast. I doubt an NPE is at play here because my cousin matches with several other Lebanese men in the region who are also I-M253. I was interested in learning more, so I ran his STRs through NevGen and it states that there is a 97.88% probability his subclade is I-L1237.

    Does anyone have any ideas on how this lineage arrived in Lebanon? Based on the historical context, the Crusades are one possibility, but I'm curious to see what others think. In total, my cousin has 12 Y-37 matches. Six of them are Lebanese, 4 are German, 1 has an ambiguous surname (could be of English or German origin), and 1 is adopted. NevGen seems to predict more specific subclades of I-L1237 according to certain STRs, with the youngest being I-Y24002.
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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by qallezan65 View Post
    A Y-37 test from my grandma's paternal first cousin revealed that their paternal haplogroup is I-M253. I found this interesting because their grandfather was a Maronite Catholic from a town near the Lebanese coast. I doubt an NPE is at play here because my cousin matches with several other Lebanese men in the region who are also I-M253. I was interested in learning more, so I ran his STRs through NevGen and it states that there is a 97.88% probability his subclade is I-L1237.

    Does anyone have any ideas on how this lineage arrived in Lebanon? Based on the historical context, the Crusades are one possibility, but I'm curious to see what others think. In total, my cousin has 12 Y-37 matches. Six of them are Lebanese, 4 are German, 1 has an ambiguous surname (could be of English or German origin), and 1 is adopted. NevGen seems to predict more specific subclades of I-L1237 according to certain STRs, with the youngest being I-Y24002.
    The Crusades must indeed be a possibility, qallezan65 (perhaps the best pending further evidence, given the number of men involved). My son wrote a university dissertation on interactions between the crusaders and the native population groups not long ago, and I remember digging up some genetic papers to help him add a couple of paragraphs on DNA findings for Medieval and modern Lebanon. I'm sure you're extremely well clued up on all that though.

    Aside from that, I-L1237 itself dates to the late Bronze Age and has a wide distribution today, with no real hotspots, so the possibilities are many. You could potentially narrow them down a bit with SNP testing, but regarding possible scenarios I'd immediately include Roman/Byzantine period Germanic strays; the Varangian guard (who had a range of Germanic origins including England); the Vikings in the Caspian and Black Sea region in Early Medieval times; and later traders.

    The Vikings would be least likely in my view if your relative really is I-Y24002, but any of the above scenarios that involve English and Germans (Crusades, Roman-era Germanic strays of various kinds, Varangians, merchants) would still be among the more likely possibilities in my view.

    EDIT: Added some detail and changed Norse to Viking to distinguish from the Varangians.
    Last edited by JonikW; 12-08-2022 at 11:14 AM.
    Recent tree: mainly West Country England and Southeast Wales, with several neighbouring regions and countries in the last few centuries
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    Quote Originally Posted by qallezan65 View Post
    A Y-37 test from my grandma's paternal first cousin revealed that their paternal haplogroup is I-M253. I found this interesting because their grandfather was a Maronite Catholic from a town near the Lebanese coast. I doubt an NPE is at play here because my cousin matches with several other Lebanese men in the region who are also I-M253. I was interested in learning more, so I ran his STRs through NevGen and it states that there is a 97.88% probability his subclade is I-L1237.

    Does anyone have any ideas on how this lineage arrived in Lebanon? Based on the historical context, the Crusades are one possibility, but I'm curious to see what others think. In total, my cousin has 12 Y-37 matches. Six of them are Lebanese, 4 are German, 1 has an ambiguous surname (could be of English or German origin), and 1 is adopted. NevGen seems to predict more specific subclades of I-L1237 according to certain STRs, with the youngest being I-Y24002.
    I think the reason found I1 in Lebanon to Crusades even i think maybe some Roman are belong in this Haplogroup
    I think Maybe poeple from Lebnon belong athis subclade
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22045/
    38.4 Mesolithic_North_Africa
    37.4 Anatolia_Barcin_Neolithic
    9.6 Levant_Natufian
    5.8 Caucasian_Neolithic
    4.6 Basal_Central/West_African
    2.2 West-Pontic_Steppe__Eneolithic_Sredny-Stog_Culture
    1.2 Wales_Meso
    0.4 CHN_Mid-Yellow-River_Mid-Neolithic_YangShao_Culture
    0.4 PER_LaGalgada_4100BP

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    Quote Originally Posted by capsian View Post
    I think the reason found I1 in Lebanon to Crusades even i think maybe some Roman are belong in this Haplogroup
    I think Maybe poeple from Lebnon belong athis subclade
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22045/
    Very interesting capsian. That's a separate L22 branch, which looks like it left Scandinavia in larger numbers relatively early on, as you say.
    Recent tree: mainly West Country England and Southeast Wales, with several neighbouring regions and countries in the last few centuries
    Y line: Peak District, c.1300. Swedish IA/VA matches; last = 711AD YFull, 880AD FTDNA
    mtDNA: Llanvihangel Pont-y-moile, 1825
    Mother's Y: Llanvair Discoed, 1770
    Avatar: Welsh Borders hillfort, 1980s

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Very interesting capsian. That's a separate L22 branch, which looks like it left Scandinavia in larger numbers relatively early on, as you say.
    It probably dates back to an ancient migration, perhaps about 2500 years ago I think there samples ancient DNA from Balkan its belong in this subclade ?
    38.4 Mesolithic_North_Africa
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    0.4 CHN_Mid-Yellow-River_Mid-Neolithic_YangShao_Culture
    0.4 PER_LaGalgada_4100BP

  10. #6
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    An update for you all. I spoke with one of the administrators of the I1 project at FamilyTreeDNA, and he predicts that my grandma’s family falls under I-BY3385, a parent clade of the previously mentioned I-Y24002 that is found in Germany and England. He recommended a BigY test, but I’ll have to wait until I have the funds necessary for this upgrade.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    The Crusades must indeed be a possibility, qallezan65 (perhaps the best pending further evidence, given the number of men involved). My son wrote a university dissertation on interactions between the crusaders and the native population groups not long ago, and I remember digging up some genetic papers to help him add a couple of paragraphs on DNA findings for Medieval and modern Lebanon. I'm sure you're extremely well clued up on all that though.

    Aside from that, I-L1237 itself dates to the late Bronze Age and has a wide distribution today, with no real hotspots, so the possibilities are many. You could potentially narrow them down a bit with SNP testing, but regarding possible scenarios I'd immediately include Roman/Byzantine period Germanic strays; the Varangian guard (who had a range of Germanic origins including England); the Vikings in the Caspian and Black Sea region in Early Medieval times; and later traders.

    The Vikings would be least likely in my view if your relative really is I-Y24002, but any of the above scenarios that involve English and Germans (Crusades, Roman-era Germanic strays of various kinds, Varangians, merchants) would still be among the more likely possibilities in my view.

    EDIT: Added some detail and changed Norse to Viking to distinguish from the Varangians.
    I definitely agree, I think those are the most plausible ways in which this haplogroup could have arrived in Lebanon. If possible, I’d love to see that dissertation once it’s available! I’ve read up on the topic of Crusaders who stayed behind in the Levant before, but I’m always interested in learning more.

    Quote Originally Posted by capsian View Post
    I think the reason found I1 in Lebanon to Crusades even i think maybe some Roman are belong in this Haplogroup
    I think Maybe poeple from Lebnon belong athis subclade
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22045/
    That’s possible too, although I-L22 is a different subclade than the one my family likely falls under. Perhaps there were some Romans with Germanic ancestry who had this haplogroup, especially closer to the Medieval era.
    Distance: 0.5337%

    25.6 Levant_Sidon_MBA
    24.2 NW_Iberia_IA
    24.0 Roman_Colonial
    16.8 Germanic_Migration
    6.2 Berber_EMA
    2.2 Yoruba
    1.0 BHS_Taino

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    Quote Originally Posted by qallezan65 View Post
    An update for you all. I spoke with one of the administrators of the I1 project at FamilyTreeDNA, and he predicts that my grandma’s family falls under I-BY3385, a parent clade of the previously mentioned I-Y24002 that is found in Germany and England. He recommended a BigY test, but I’ll have to wait until I have the funds necessary for this upgrade.



    I definitely agree, I think those are the most plausible ways in which this haplogroup could have arrived in Lebanon. If possible, I’d love to see that dissertation once it’s available! I’ve read up on the topic of Crusaders who stayed behind in the Levant before, but I’m always interested in learning more.



    That’s possible too, although I-L22 is a different subclade than the one my family likely falls under. Perhaps there were some Romans with Germanic ancestry who had this haplogroup, especially closer to the Medieval era.
    Yes, maybe but don't forget that there was a Germanics impressment in the Roman Empire
    38.4 Mesolithic_North_Africa
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    4.6 Basal_Central/West_African
    2.2 West-Pontic_Steppe__Eneolithic_Sredny-Stog_Culture
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    Quote Originally Posted by qallezan65 View Post
    An update for you all. I spoke with one of the administrators of the I1 project at FamilyTreeDNA, and he predicts that my grandma’s family falls under I-BY3385, a parent clade of the previously mentioned I-Y24002 that is found in Germany and England. He recommended a BigY test, but I’ll have to wait until I have the funds necessary for this upgrade.



    I definitely agree, I think those are the most plausible ways in which this haplogroup could have arrived in Lebanon. If possible, I’d love to see that dissertation once it’s available! I’ve read up on the topic of Crusaders who stayed behind in the Levant before, but I’m always interested in learning more.



    That’s possible too, although I-L22 is a different subclade than the one my family likely falls under. Perhaps there were some Romans with Germanic ancestry who had this haplogroup, especially closer to the Medieval era.
    Interesting , it seems to me I-BY3386 is a subclade that came to Near East in era Crusades and less probalty in era Roman ?
    38.4 Mesolithic_North_Africa
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    9.6 Levant_Natufian
    5.8 Caucasian_Neolithic
    4.6 Basal_Central/West_African
    2.2 West-Pontic_Steppe__Eneolithic_Sredny-Stog_Culture
    1.2 Wales_Meso
    0.4 CHN_Mid-Yellow-River_Mid-Neolithic_YangShao_Culture
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    It’s definitely possible. There were tens of thousands of men involved in the Crusades and I imagine many of them (especially those from northwestern Europe) carried haplogroup I1. While it’s not the only possibility, it wouldn’t be implausible for one of these men to settle down, with their descendants eventually assimilating into the Maronite population. I-BY3386 has a TMRCA dated around 2500 years ago, but its descendant clades are well documented on YFull and on FamilyTreeDNA. I’m hoping that once I’m able to afford a BigY test for my cousin, he forms a much younger haplogroup with one of these men. His second closest match at the Y-37 level is a German man identified as I-BY3386*, so I’m confident his terminal clade falls under here.
    Distance: 0.5337%

    25.6 Levant_Sidon_MBA
    24.2 NW_Iberia_IA
    24.0 Roman_Colonial
    16.8 Germanic_Migration
    6.2 Berber_EMA
    2.2 Yoruba
    1.0 BHS_Taino

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    There were crusades, but also other movements of people, like Vikings, Germans etc. coming down to the Byzantine and later the Ottoman Empire, as free men or unfree ones. Really a lot of options without an exact subclade and near testers from Europe.

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