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Thread: Does the connection of M269 with copper skills go right back to its invention

  1. #21
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    I maybe overdid it but I am just trying to redress a bit of balance. If anyone looked collectively at the cultural remains just before 4000BC of the Volga-Urals area and the Balkans they would undoubtedly (if they didnt know anything about them)conclude that the Balkans cultures were light years more advanced. Its just a little weird that people tend not to relate to the very impressive Balkans cultures.

    I am not saying the steppe cultures didnt make an impact. The question is more was that impact for the better. In the east their development of pastoralism on wheels opened up vast nearly empty places that could not be settled before. In the west its a lot more questionable whether their impact was positive or a set back. That said, west of the east Balkans and lower Danube the IEs clearly did drop a lot of the steppe way of living. Indeed IMO one of the reasons why the eastwards movements are so mobile pastoralist in nature but in old Europe agriculture continued is because the western steppes cultures themselves were highly variable with an area around the Dnieper to Don that had much more developed agriculture and other influences from the south and west while those around the Volga/Samara area had no arable agriculture to speak of. So, you could say the westernmost steppe cultures like Sredny Stog, Post-Mariupol, Kemi-Oba, Usatovo etc were already ready adapted to move into the Old Europe with ease because of long standing relationships, long standing mixing of populations and the fact that those steppe groups had a much more developed agriculture than areas to the east. Those to the east in the Volga-Urals area had virtually zero agriculture other than pastoralism added to their hunting and they were better adapted to move east into the challenging environment of the central Asian steppes etc - something that the westernmost steppe groups would have probably not had the knowledge to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    What's with the silly propaganda against the Russian steppe archeological cultures?

    They weren't backwards and they did have a huge impact on Europe too. Refer to the paper below.

    The Bronze Age expansion of Indo-European languages

    There's a video to go with it. Skip to 31 minutes, where he says "the rapid westward expansion of that military complex, which is not only a military complex, but a complex of social institutions...so this is a highly complex ranked society that is expanding here".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C4Xs...HSBH2i&index=7
    Last edited by alan; 06-23-2014 at 11:35 AM.

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  3. #22
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    Sometime I'd like to see this sort of thread touch upon the research into (slightly) prehistoric viniculture, led by Patrick E. McGovern at Penn and (mostly later) others. Jean Manco's AJ book is comprehensive enough and recent enough; look at the last page (of the Index, and of the book) under "wine," and check the footnotes for the cited pages. I happened to run across McGovern's Ancient Wine last week in the gift shop of the Oriental Institute in Chicago. It's a good read, not so recent now, but there's a lot about DNA. Happens to be grape DNA rather than human, but those domesticated cultivars were not spread by bird droppings. And they point to a lot of the same geography and populations as do these discussions of copper smelting in the circumpontic. One distinction being, probably, that winemaking may have had fewer options for its routes of diffusion; it probably wouldn't move gradually (over millennia) through territories too cold to grow grapes.

    Anyway, pots aren't people; but pots with wine residue are pretty good pointers to a cultural practice that might have a lot of its roots in common with those of the big R haplogroups, PIE, the immediate metallurgical precursors of bronze, the technology of sewn boats, and so on. I've wondered for a while now whether there's any chance that the R1b-Z2103 relative "outliers" in places such as Tuscany and the Loire Valley were, at some more distant time, managing vineyards in Georgia or Armenia?

    I realize I get some eccentric notions about these things; but the (human, contemporary, Y-) DNA is pointing at something odd. Probably several somethings. Herders of cattle on the Danube, Celtic warriors, and Phoenician traders can account for some of it -- but they've had plenty of advocates.

    Other people interested in human migration have been studying the DNA of horses, edible frogs, and chickens. Who speaks for the grape?

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    Sometime I'd like to see this sort of thread touch upon the research into (slightly) prehistoric viniculture, led by Patrick E. McGovern at Penn and (mostly later) others. Jean Manco's AJ book is comprehensive enough and recent enough; look at the last page (of the Index, and of the book) under "wine," and check the footnotes for the cited pages. I happened to run across McGovern's Ancient Wine last week in the gift shop of the Oriental Institute in Chicago. It's a good read, not so recent now, but there's a lot about DNA. Happens to be grape DNA rather than human, but those domesticated cultivars were not spread by bird droppings. And they point to a lot of the same geography and populations as do these discussions of copper smelting in the circumpontic. One distinction being, probably, that winemaking may have had fewer options for its routes of diffusion; it probably wouldn't move gradually (over millennia) through territories too cold to grow grapes.

    Anyway, pots aren't people; but pots with wine residue are pretty good pointers to a cultural practice that might have a lot of its roots in common with those of the big R haplogroups, PIE, the immediate metallurgical precursors of bronze, the technology of sewn boats, and so on. I've wondered for a while now whether there's any chance that the R1b-Z2103 relative "outliers" in places such as Tuscany and the Loire Valley were, at some more distant time, managing vineyards in Georgia or Armenia?

    I realize I get some eccentric notions about these things; but the (human, contemporary, Y-) DNA is pointing at something odd. Probably several somethings. Herders of cattle on the Danube, Celtic warriors, and Phoenician traders can account for some of it -- but they've had plenty of advocates.

    Other people interested in human migration have been studying the DNA of horses, edible frogs, and chickens. Who speaks for the grape?
    Quite possible, as I said, I tend to think that R1b was confined to the Caucasus at some point... I could be wrong, I could be right, if this really was the case then we have a culprit for some of the Kartvelian & NW Caucasian loans in PIE.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


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  7. #24
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    I have no idea as to whether or not R1b-Z2103 has connections with ancient viniculture. I just had to give your post a like because it happens to be a really good piece of writing and it tickled me. Who speaks for the grape, indeed!

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    So, IMO PIE first formed in a mixed group whose important main role seems to have been as middle men in the interaction between the rather backwards steppe peoples and the advanced metal using Balkans groups up to about 4000BC.
    Backwoods? Backward? Either way this sort of thinking flies in the face of history. We should know. Britain, a country so culturally retarted that it still had not manged to re-invent central heating, started exploring the world and accumulating souvenirs (like Virginia, India, Australia, and other trifles that fit nicely on the mantlepiece over the log fire in the freezing great hall). How was that possible? England in the time of Elizabeth I was barely able to hold off Spain. Clearly the British Empire should not have happened if we follow your reasoning. Plus the Mongols should never have been able to take China. Attilla the Hun wouldn't have had the smallest chance of any variety of empire. The Vandals wouldn't have got within 500 miles of Rome. Etc, etc.

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  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    The Vandals wouldn't have got within 500 miles of Rome. Etc, etc.
    is there any scientific/forensic proof about vandals?
    i think that there are much more "historical tribes", that y dna hg`s....

  12. #27
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    I don't know where to put my little 2 cents worth, so I'll put it here. My latest autosomal match at FTDNA has M269. Furthermore, it shows an Irish flag with Niall of the Nine Hostages printed on it. I don't have many of those, but it does pop up now and then among my FTDNA matches. He is from Nova Scotia, where a female from there also matches me ("in common with"). I suspect those matches somehow connect to my mysterious direct maternal line that I further suspect goes back to New England in the 1600s.
    Last edited by Baltimore1937; 04-29-2016 at 11:04 PM.

  13. #28
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    Something struck me about Bell-Beaker people re-using Megalithic/Neolithic tombs and there variations of burial practices. I was thinking these people were not buried by their 'own ethnic culture' but by the 'foreign' societies they moved into. What about other practices like some Amerindian practices that have left no trace. This kind of small scale integration could have happened many if not all the time in varying degrees any/everywhere. I think pastoralism and arable farming could have benefited each other. Live stoke up the mountains in summer when the crops grow bring them down in the winter for shelter, straw, hay in return they provide fertilizer. BB is often described as a package that does not mean that its elements did not move individually and interdependently earlier and on a smaller scale. Like trails to tracks to roads to motorways, not every trail became a motorway and not every motorway started as a trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. View Post
    Something struck me about Bell-Beaker people re-using Megalithic/Neolithic tombs and there variations of burial practices. I was thinking these people were not buried by their 'own ethnic culture' but by the 'foreign' societies they moved into. What about other practices like some Amerindian practices that have left no trace. This kind of small scale integration could have happened many if not all the time in varying degrees any/everywhere. I think pastoralism and arable farming could have benefited each other. Live stoke up the mountains in summer when the crops grow bring them down in the winter for shelter, straw, hay in return they provide fertilizer. BB is often described as a package that does not mean that its elements did not move individually and interdependently earlier and on a smaller scale. Like trails to tracks to roads to motorways, not every trail became a motorway and not every motorway started as a trail.
    Maybe, but the earliest Bell Beaker people found in collective Neolithic tombs, especially in Iberia, look just like Near Eastern-derived Neolithic farmers: they are short in stature, long headed (dolichocephalic), and have gracile skeletons. They also lack what we think of as the Bell Beaker burial kit: weapons, archer's wristguards, etc.

    Until we know better, I think we are looking at two different sets of Beaker people, early and later, with probably two different y-dna profiles.

    We know the later Bell Beaker men tended to be P312+. We don't yet know anything about the y-dna of the earliest Bell Beaker men. I doubt it was R1b.
    Last edited by rms2; 04-30-2016 at 05:53 PM.

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  17. #30
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    It does seem likely that the likes of the Balearic Isles were of different ancestry than the (presumed) Yamnaya types. It also seems they're religious practices were more close to Neolithic farmers i.e more cosmology based. I think more Northern BB were more like the IE(?) type n forerunners of Lugh, Odin, Zeus, Jupiter etc type pantheons.

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