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Thread: Z49, where did it come from? How did it expand?

  1. #1
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    Z49, where did it come from? How did it expand?

    I strongly suspect my maternal grandfather was Z49+, so I decided to take a look at this marker in particular.
    It looks like it could've come to Britain from France, but I'm really at loss here... What do we actually know about this subclade???
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  3. #2
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    That is what I would like to know as well!!

    I know this would be highly speculative but I suspect Z49 is from Greece and then France.

    Maybe in the future we can find some more evidence that would support this idea.
    Last edited by Pigmon; 09-26-2014 at 01:43 PM. Reason: typo
    Former cold war era "silent warrior" - the top 1/2 of the top 1 percent of the U.S. Air Force Hidden Content
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    Current level of testing: R1b1a2a1a2b1c1 U152, L2, Z49, Z142 and Z12222/Z150*

    (BigY shows that a back mutation of PF214 make my closest Big Y matches Buffington, Smith, Lincoln and Mitchell)

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     Agamemnon (09-27-2014)

  5. #3
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    I would also be very interested in this. We have 18 men with the surname Barry or Berry who have tested, or are presumed to be, Z49+. I have also tested positive for a downstream SNP, S8183. The surname is generally considered to be Anglo-Norman-Irish but may have originated in Flanders.

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     Agamemnon (09-27-2014)

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    I'm Z49+ S8183+ and my ancestors (17th century) are from Bohemia, Czech Republic now. My closest genetic matches are from Sweden.

    You can check https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults and you will see:
    Z49+: 30x England, 21x France, 7x Germany, 7x Ireland, 4x Italy, 4x Scotland, 4x Switzerland, 3x Sweden, 1x Czechia, 1x Hungary, 1x Poland, 1x Russia, 1x Spain, 1x United Kingdom, 1x Wales.
    Z49+ S8183+: 5x Ireland, 2x Germany, 2x Italy, 2x Sweden, Czechia, England.

    Still very small sample.

    Petr
    Y-DNA: R-Y14088 (ISOGG: R1b1a1a2a1a2b1c2b1a1a)
    mtDNA: J1c1i (J1c1 + 7735G and 8848C) Extras: 198T 12007A 16422C 16431A

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    Thanks, Petr--I am awaiting BigY results, which may give us some more clues. Of the 5xIreland, they are all men with my surname and I am actually the only one who has tested S8183.

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  11. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pigmon View Post
    That is what I would like to know as well!!

    I know this would be highly speculative but I suspect Z49 is from Greece and then France.

    Maybe in the future we can find some more evidence that would support this idea.
    Highly speculative? I would say it is about as highly unlikely of a scenario as there is. How did you come up with your speculation...(Hopefully it's not linked to your speculation that your single surname "Pigman" is somehow linked to the Pygmalion Myth)?
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 09-29-2014 at 02:06 AM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  13. #7
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    No, the speculation is based upon my high number of matches to these studies:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...4/?tool=pubmed

    The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean

    Roy King concurs:

    Roy J King Jr
    To
    Me
    Apr 27, 2013

    Dear Curtis,
    Yes, I think you could definitely have paternal ancestry from the Phocaean Greeks in Massalia. There was a huge trade between the Greeks of Massalia and the surrounding Celto-Ligurians of Southern France with ample evidence of Greek wine amphora all across the region. As in my paper, we see a male mediated immigration with the likely scenario of Greek males marrying local women. This pattern is evident in some of the founding myths of Massalia as well. I haven't looked at M269 (mostly V13 and in our subsequent G paper, L13/M529), but clearly M269/U152 lineages could have also traversed the Mediterranean with the Greek colonists.
    Hope this is helpful and thanks for the additional insights!
    Best,



    GD of 0 ------9
    GD of 1 ------9
    GD of 2 ------4
    GD of 3 ------3
    GD of 4 ------5

    Out of 72 subjects of Ionian Greek grandparents I match 30 of them. 9 at a genetic distance of 0. This comparison uses only 6 markers however. That is what make it speculative!

    Regards,
    Curtis
    Last edited by Pigmon; 10-02-2014 at 02:21 PM.
    Former cold war era "silent warrior" - the top 1/2 of the top 1 percent of the U.S. Air Force Hidden Content
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    Current level of testing: R1b1a2a1a2b1c1 U152, L2, Z49, Z142 and Z12222/Z150*

    (BigY shows that a back mutation of PF214 make my closest Big Y matches Buffington, Smith, Lincoln and Mitchell)

  14. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pigmon View Post
    No, the speculation is based upon my high number of matches to these studies:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...4/?tool=pubmed

    The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean

    Roy King concurs:

    Roy J King Jr
    To
    Me
    Apr 27, 2013

    Dear Curtis,
    Yes, I think you could definitely have paternal ancestry from the Phocaean Greeks in Massalia. There was a huge trade between the Greeks of Massalia and the surrounding Celto-Ligurians of Southern France with ample evidence of Greek wine amphora all across the region. As in my paper, we see a male mediated immigration with the likely scenario of Greek males marrying local women. This pattern is evident in some of the founding myths of Massalia as well. I haven't looked at M269 (mostly V13 and in our subsequent G paper, L13/M529), but clearly M269/U152 lineages could have also traversed the Mediterranean with the Greek colonists.
    Hope this is helpful and thanks for the additional insights!
    Best,



    GD of 0 ------9
    GD of 1 ------9
    GD of 2 ------4
    GD of 3 ------3
    GD of 4 ------5

    Out of 72 subjects of Ionian Greek grandparents I match 30 of them. 9 at a genetic distance of 0. This comparison uses only 6 markers however. That is what make it speculative!

    Regards,
    Curtis
    But you speculated that Z49 was from Greece, which means you included in your speculation all of the Z49 people that do not share an STR signature with you. Besides, it is not very difficult to have small GD with 6 markers, so I'm sure you match at 6 markers with many more populations that are heavy in R1b in Western Europe. Lastly, those R1b samples from Greece could also be something other than Z49 or L2 or U152.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  16. #9
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    Here is the Z49 tree I made, taken from Richard Rocca's early Dec 2014 U152 Tree.

    Unlike the U152 and L2 trees I posted yesterday and today, that only go down 2 levels;

    this Z49 Tree goes all the way to the current terminal SNPs based on Richard's tree.

    Z49-Org-Chart-14-decv2.jpg

    Higher quality image located here: http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/or...25e7cdcbf5.jpg

    Let me know if you spot any errors and I will be happy to fix them.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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  18. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Here is the Z49 tree I made, taken from Richard Rocca's early Dec 2014 U152 Tree.

    Unlike the U152 and L2 trees I posted yesterday and today, that only go down 2 levels;

    this Z49 Tree goes all the way to the current terminal SNPs based on Richard's tree.

    Z49-Org-Chart-14-decv2.jpg

    Higher quality image located here: http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/or...25e7cdcbf5.jpg

    Let me know if you spot any errors and I will be happy to fix them.
    Thanks for doing that Mark. This really shows in a helpful visual way how all of our SNPs are interconnected.
    Former cold war era "silent warrior" - the top 1/2 of the top 1 percent of the U.S. Air Force Hidden Content
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    Current level of testing: R1b1a2a1a2b1c1 U152, L2, Z49, Z142 and Z12222/Z150*

    (BigY shows that a back mutation of PF214 make my closest Big Y matches Buffington, Smith, Lincoln and Mitchell)

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