Hui Y-DNA and mtDNA

[alienation]

Ignoring the 2.79% Other and splitting the 1.74% Mongol-Tungus evenly between "Mongol" and "Tungus", this is what I got in my 23mofang to MDLP K23b model:

44.92% South_East_Asian
29.39% Tungus_Altaic
20.32% Austronesian
1.03% East_Siberian
0.35% Paleo_Siberian

0.92% South_Central_Asian
0.43% EHG
0.41% South_Indian
0.71% Caucasian
0.40% Ancestral_Altaic (ANE-like?)

96.0% East Asian, 0.4383 on my N-S cline. This is more southern than the simulated Han averages for any of the northern provinces, and somewhat more northern than me. The non-East Asian percentage is a little lower than my Shanxi simulation and around the same as my Gansu simulation.


Razib Khan Dec 2022 GNXP blog post: The Hui Muslims, Two Pulses Of “Western” Ancestry 1,000 And 500 Years Ago, Mostly Male Mediated

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/38/9/3804/6281079



According to this paper, 39.3% of Ningxia Hui have West Eurasian Y-DNA haplogroups. The mtDNA percentage is lower than X-chromosome, which makes sense since X chromosome ancestry in women is inherited from both parents. From Razib:

I guess all our posts should be treated like blog entry posts like Razib's, but I think the Hui are an example of male-mediated selection and that ethnicity historically in dynastic periods has been passed down patrilineally, as a consideration of legal precedents of the time. They are not just an ethnic group that also speaks a form of Mandarin Chinese, but a religious or ethno-religious one.

But of course there is a social bias to 23mofang's userbase for those who could afford it and have time to take such a thing and were able to reach that point.

[alienation]

I don't think Shinto should be treated as a religion or as an ideology, or that it even has any relevance in the discussion of the Hui and genetic anthropology, a different sector of the social sciences/humanities.

I feel like politics or even some humanities should just stay out of science.
But for now, I feel as if, if we are going by standards of Razib, that our posts would inevitably be swaded by political discourse in East Eurasian genetics and anthropology. I wish it to be close to 100% scientific and objective, and meticulously tracked with historical events and archaeological data as possible
I'm kind of skeptical of Razib's views of East Asian genetics topics since he is no expert on archaeology and practices. But his information can be very helpful nonetheless

also the fact that there isn't much people interested. which should be kept as the case. it would be helpful if we have more scientists and specialists in these discussions so we can rely more on them and less on polemicists. if one is articulate, very clear and incisive and considerate and backs it up with scientific data then let them speak

[okarinaofsteiner]

I'm kind of skeptical of Razib's views of East Asian genetics topics since he is no expert on archaeology and practices. But his information can be very helpful nonetheless

also the fact that there isn't much people interested. which should be kept as the case. it would be helpful if we have more scientists and specialists in these discussions so we can rely more on them and less on polemicists. if one is articulate, very clear and incisive and considerate and backs it up with scientific data then let them speak

I haven't noticed any ideological or socio-political bias from Razib Khan's posts on East Asian genetics or population history, especially since none of his personal views make it into his analysis of genomic data. Agree that it's better to have content from population genetics experts than people with a certain agenda, although Anthrogenica seems better about that than most other online forums.

[Riverman]

Interesting is also the make up of the Western ancestral contribution:

We found the results assuming four ancestral populations for Eurasian populations best explain the genetic ancestry composition of NXH, that is, East Asian (EA), Siberian (SI, West Eurasian (WE), and South Asian (SA).

These results suggested that WE and SA ancestral components jointly formed the western ancestry before it contributed to the NXH gene pool in a south-to-north direction. In contrast, the scenario of eastern ancestry was more complex, of which EA ancestral component contributed to the NXH gene pool in a north-to-south direction, whereas SIB ancestral component contributed to NXH gene pool via both western and eastern ancestries (fig. 2C). Moreover, both the admixture history graph (AHG) and GLOBETROTTER results suggested that SIB ancestry might be introduced into the gene pool of NXH via both western and eastern ancestries (fig. 2C and supplementary fig. S9 and table S7, Supplementary Material online).

Next, we looked for populations showing WE-SA-SIB admixture. Lezgin and Kumyk populations were the best-guess representatives of ancestral origins of western ancestry inferred with GLOBETROTTER (supplementary table S7, Supplementary Material online). The proportion of WE, SA, SIB ancestral components in these two populations highly correlated with that in NXH (COR = 0.999, P = 0.02; COR = 0.997, P = 0.05 for Lezgin and Kumyk populations, respectively) (supplementary fig. S11, Supplementary Material online).

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article...79?login=false

Lezgins and Kumyks is a funny guess:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lezgins

Kumyks (Kumyk: Къумукълар, romanized: Qumuqlar, Russian: Кумыки) are a Turkic people, indigenous to Dagestan, Chechnya and North Ossetia.[9][10] They are the largest Turkic people in the North Caucasus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumyks

Would be worth to check the uniparentals for such scenarios, probably. The E-V13 minority is present in the Caucasus a well, rest I haven't checked yet.

[okarinaofsteiner]

Ignoring the 2.79% Other and splitting the 1.74% Mongol-Tungus evenly between "Mongol" and "Tungus", this is what I got in my 23mofang to MDLP K23b model:

44.92% South_East_Asian
29.39% Tungus_Altaic
20.32% Austronesian
1.03% East_Siberian
0.35% Paleo_Siberian

0.92% South_Central_Asian
0.43% EHG
0.41% South_Indian
0.71% Caucasian
0.40% Ancestral_Altaic (ANE-like?)

96.0% East Asian, 0.4383 on my N-S cline. This is more southern than the simulated Han averages for any of the northern provinces, and somewhat more northern than me. The non-East Asian percentage is a little lower than my Shanxi simulation and around the same as my Gansu simulation.

This is probably because not all Hui in China are from Gansu/Ningxia/etc. Many notable Hui were from other parts of China, for example KMT General Bai Chongxi was born in Guangxi.

[MNOPSC1b]

This is probably because not all Hui in China are from Gansu/Ningxia/etc. Many notable Hui were from other parts of China, for example KMT General Bai Chongxi was born in Guangxi.

While it's true that there're Hui in Guangxi, Guangdong, and Hainan, such a result cannot be from a Hui person living in Far South China. I'd expect the Hui from Guangxi and Hainan (some Hainan Hui are of Cham descent) to have significantly lower Tungus-Altaic and significantly higher Austronesian.

Ignoring the 2.79% Other and splitting the 1.74% Mongol-Tungus evenly between "Mongol" and "Tungus", this is what I got in my 23mofang to MDLP K23b model:

44.92% South_East_Asian
29.39% Tungus_Altaic
20.32% Austronesian
1.03% East_Siberian
0.35% Paleo_Siberian

0.92% South_Central_Asian
0.43% EHG
0.41% South_Indian
0.71% Caucasian
0.40% Ancestral_Altaic (ANE-like?)

96.0% East Asian, 0.4383 on my N-S cline. This is more southern than the simulated Han averages for any of the northern provinces, and somewhat more northern than me. The non-East Asian percentage is a little lower than my Shanxi simulation and around the same as my Gansu simulation.

[Ebizur]

cf. ZHANG Jinke, DONG Wei, TANG Guangfeng, HUANG Xiaoliang, YANG Zhen, WANG Xiaojun, ZHANG Jie, ZHAO Yingjian, ZHU Yiqing, and JIANG Li, "Paternal genetic structure of Han and Hui male populations in Shandong." Acta Anthropologica Sinica Vol. 41, No. 1 (February 2022). DOI: 10.16359/j.1000-3193/AAS.2021.0007.

Y-DNA of Hui from Shandong
16/130 = 12.31% C2-M217(xM48)

1/130 = 0.77% D-M174 > D-CTS11577 > D-F6251 > D-M15

1/130 = 0.77% E-M96

1/130 = 0.77% F-M89(xG-M201, H-L901, I-M170, J-M304, K-M9)

2/130 = 1.54% G-M201

1/130 = 0.77% H-L901

21/130 = 16.15% J-M304

1/130 = 0.77% N-M128
3/130 = 2.31% N-M46
1/130 = 0.77% N-F1206(xM46, M128, P43)
5/130 = 3.85% N-F2930
10/130 = 7.69% N-M231 total

2/130 = 1.54% O1a-M307.1

3/130 = 2.31% O-F1803/M1348(xM88)
7/130 = 5.38% O-F838
10/130 = 7.69% O-PK4 total
7/130 = 5.38% O-Page59
2/130 = 1.54% O-M176 > O-F1942(xF1204, CTS562)
19/130 = 14.62% O1b-M268 total

3/130 = 2.31% O-F1365
2/130 = 1.54% O-F632
1/130 = 0.77% O-F11(xF1365, F632)
6/130 = 4.62% O-F11 total
1/130 = 0.77% O-F449
7/130 = 5.38% O2a1-L127.1 > O-IMS-JST002611 > O-F18 total

2/130 = 1.54% O-M188 > O-CTS445 > O-M7
3/130 = 2.31% O-M188 > O-CTS445(xM7, F1837, F879)
5/130 = 3.85% O2a2a-M188 total

7/130 = 5.38% O-M134 > O-M117
3/130 = 2.31% O-M134 > O-F114
4/130 = 3.08% O-M134(xM117, F114)
14/130 = 10.77% O2a2b-P164 > O-M134 total
1/130 = 0.77% O2a2-IMS-JST021354/p201(xM188, P164)
20/130 = 15.38% O2a2-IMS-JST021354/p201 total
27/130 = 20.77% O2a-M324 total
1/130 = 0.77% O2b-F742
1/130 = 0.77% O2-M122(xM324, F742)
29/130 = 22.31% O2-M122 total
50/130 = 38.46% O-M175 total

8/130 = 6.15% Q-M242

16/130 = 12.31% R1a-M512
1/130 = 0.77% R1a-M420(xM512)
17/130 = 13.08% R1-M173 > R1a-M420 total
1/130 = 0.77% R2-M479
18/130 = 13.85% R-M207 total

1/130 = 0.77% T-M184

[East-Asia]

cf. ZHANG Jinke, DONG Wei, TANG Guangfeng, HUANG Xiaoliang, YANG Zhen, WANG Xiaojun, ZHANG Jie, ZHAO Yingjian, ZHU Yiqing, and JIANG Li, "Paternal genetic structure of Han and Hui male populations in Shandong." Acta Anthropologica Sinica Vol. 41, No. 1 (February 2022). DOI: 10.16359/j.1000-3193/AAS.2021.0007.

Y-DNA of Hui from Shandong
16/130 = 12.31% C2-M217(xM48)

1/130 = 0.77% D-M174 > D-CTS11577 > D-F6251 > D-M15

1/130 = 0.77% E-M96

1/130 = 0.77% F-M89(xG-M201, H-L901, I-M170, J-M304, K-M9)

2/130 = 1.54% G-M201

1/130 = 0.77% H-L901

21/130 = 16.15% J-M304

1/130 = 0.77% N-M128
3/130 = 2.31% N-M46
1/130 = 0.77% N-F1206(xM46, M128, P43)
5/130 = 3.85% N-F2930
10/130 = 7.69% N-M231 total

2/130 = 1.54% O1a-M307.1

3/130 = 2.31% O-F1803/M1348(xM88)
7/130 = 5.38% O-F838
10/130 = 7.69% O-PK4 total
7/130 = 5.38% O-Page59
2/130 = 1.54% O-M176 > O-F1942(xF1204, CTS562)
19/130 = 14.62% O1b-M268 total

3/130 = 2.31% O-F1365
2/130 = 1.54% O-F632
1/130 = 0.77% O-F11(xF1365, F632)
6/130 = 4.62% O-F11 total
1/130 = 0.77% O-F449
7/130 = 5.38% O2a1-L127.1 > O-IMS-JST002611 > O-F18 total

2/130 = 1.54% O-M188 > O-CTS445 > O-M7
3/130 = 2.31% O-M188 > O-CTS445(xM7, F1837, F879)
5/130 = 3.85% O2a2a-M188 total

7/130 = 5.38% O-M134 > O-M117
3/130 = 2.31% O-M134 > O-F114
4/130 = 3.08% O-M134(xM117, F114)
14/130 = 10.77% O2a2b-P164 > O-M134 total
1/130 = 0.77% O2a2-IMS-JST021354/p201(xM188, P164)
20/130 = 15.38% O2a2-IMS-JST021354/p201 total
27/130 = 20.77% O2a-M324 total
1/130 = 0.77% O2b-F742
1/130 = 0.77% O2-M122(xM324, F742)
29/130 = 22.31% O2-M122 total
50/130 = 38.46% O-M175 total

8/130 = 6.15% Q-M242

16/130 = 12.31% R1a-M512
1/130 = 0.77% R1a-M420(xM512)
17/130 = 13.08% R1-M173 > R1a-M420 total
1/130 = 0.77% R2-M479
18/130 = 13.85% R-M207 total

1/130 = 0.77% T-M184

One case 1/130 = 0.77% D-M174 > D-CTS11577 > D-F6251 > D-M15 of D-M15 in Hui people of Shandong, which you reported as one of the first haplogroups in your Hui Y-DNA list, would correspond well to the distribution of "one unit of 1000 times the f2 drift distance" shared simultaneously by the following populations, as discovered in Western-approved Japanese models in Gakuhari et al, 2020:
- the unit shared simultaneously by Y-DNA D-M64 Ainu-related Jomon samples; by Y-DNA D-M64 individuals currently having become Japonic speakers; by the ancient Tibetan Chokhopani who had interacted with Y-DNA D-M15 population which some Japanese think is more closely related to D-M64 maximally found in Ainu in Japan and with a lesser frequency in individuals currently speaking Japanese.

The above triple coincidence discovered by Gakuhari et al explains some Ainu-like words discovered in Tibetan languages where D-M15 haplogroup bearers are found and supports the migration of Y-DNA D-M64 to Japan from the West (at least as far as the Himalayas).