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Thread: Is this pattern, Birkarl, Bayor, Novgorod? No way to tell?

  1. #1
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    Is this pattern, Birkarl, Bayor, Novgorod? No way to tell?

    A978654D-90E4-4CA4-A269-29EA08D6125A.jpeg
    I am not a DNA expert; I just mapped the location of some folks who match me on the same sticky segment for Swedish (and possibly Danish) grandparent. We do have Forest Finn Swedish DNA, so tons of Finnish, Ingrian, and Karelian matches in the same segment. Most matches around Tornio (we are not from there, but pre-1600s some untitled noble Všsterbotten families populated areas of Jšmtland we came from). East Finn founders are the same population as the settlers of Tornio around the same time. Iím not sure why I match more folks up there but okay.

    Longest matching segment is to a Karelian. All segments from Sweden to Ingria are the same size. Called ď2nd-4thĒ cousins but probably match from 1600s (not so weird for this endogamous background). Segment gets smaller east and south of Karelia but then itís roughly the same size in these areas. So these are older matches or newer matches? Iím confused. Anyway, my dad has 34k matches, which is ridiculous, but I think a few thousand (at least) are just distant cousins on this pattern.

    Question is if you see a pattern or if there is a way to tell. I get mixed info on where birkarls came from but I know Bayor families were highly endogamous and originated in Novgorod. These also look like trade routes? I donít know exactly which ones or how old - if I canít understand which direction this smaller segments go in time.

    I get Swedish on Gedmatch Eurogenes and MDLP. But the other models switch Swedish out for Volga or Belarusian.
    paper trail: Denmark - 37.5%, Sweden - 31.25%, Norway - 31.25% (northern Minnesotan)
    AncestryDNA aDNA - 52% Sweden & Denmark, 42% Norway, 5% Finland
    MyHeritage - 90.2% Scandinavian, 7.8% Finnish, 1.2% Nigerian, .8 % North African
    MDLP - 1. Frisian + Icelandic + Icelandic + Russian Upper Volga @2.1
    2. Icelandic + Swede + Swede Saami + Swede Saami @2.16

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     ∆sir (02-06-2023)

  3. #2
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    Slash and burn agriculture of Finland originated in Novgorod. This is another possibility but it is only speculation then. But then they are very old segments, which would make sense if my dad has 34k matches - majority being in Sweden and Finland
    paper trail: Denmark - 37.5%, Sweden - 31.25%, Norway - 31.25% (northern Minnesotan)
    AncestryDNA aDNA - 52% Sweden & Denmark, 42% Norway, 5% Finland
    MyHeritage - 90.2% Scandinavian, 7.8% Finnish, 1.2% Nigerian, .8 % North African
    MDLP - 1. Frisian + Icelandic + Icelandic + Russian Upper Volga @2.1
    2. Icelandic + Swede + Swede Saami + Swede Saami @2.16

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ∆sir View Post
    Slash-and-burn technique suitable for coniferous forest is a spesific phenomenon, it originated from the Finnic tribes, they where part of Novgorod when it spread west to Finland and Sweden.

    It allowed settlers to move in to regions that where not well suited to farming, this led to conflict with those that viewed those regions falling under their enjoyment right, hunting for furs was a major side income for many.

    It was this technique that Finns introduced in to North America by the New Sweden colonists.
    I find that the Slash and burn technique was used by the Kieven Rus between 900 and 1200ad. The Dniepr was used as the trade route (also for amber - and I think also amber from Baltic coasts). Ingria had connections between Novgorod and Sweden from roughly 1000 to 1600s, when it fell under Swedish rule. Some of these Ingrian families were highly endogamous in attempts to hold their land (especially the bayors). These names became noble names in Finland. We match Aminoff most likely. Not sure about the others. Anyway, it might be this agricultural pattern coming from Novgorod - very old segment broken down by current Russians but still very long by current Finnish matches. Still just guessing but good possibility
    paper trail: Denmark - 37.5%, Sweden - 31.25%, Norway - 31.25% (northern Minnesotan)
    AncestryDNA aDNA - 52% Sweden & Denmark, 42% Norway, 5% Finland
    MyHeritage - 90.2% Scandinavian, 7.8% Finnish, 1.2% Nigerian, .8 % North African
    MDLP - 1. Frisian + Icelandic + Icelandic + Russian Upper Volga @2.1
    2. Icelandic + Swede + Swede Saami + Swede Saami @2.16

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