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Thread: Raetian Cluster

  1. #1
    Registered Users
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    3,794
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    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain

    Raetian Cluster

    The recently tested Simonetti (L2+ FGC10543+) belongs to a cluster that is likely prevalent in North Eastern Italy, but more so in the Alps bordering Austria and less so in the Venetian Plains. The modal values for what I am calling the "Raetian Cluster" are as follows:

    DYS442 = 11 (L2 modal = 12)
    DYS385a >= 12 (L2 modal = 11)
    DYS458 <= 16 (L2 modal = 17)
    DYS449 = 27 (L2 modal = 29)

    Here are the kits that are likely part of the FGC10543 Raetian Cluster, with Simonetti already confirmed:

    B3593, Simeone Simonetti de Simon ~1655, Zoppé di Cadoré, Belluno, Veneto, Italy
    E8413, Paolo Bonfant b. 1509 Cembra, Trentino, Italy
    N113573, Nicolas Gosselin (Gausselin) b. ~1593, Combray, France
    111292, Johann Jacob Kuhn b.~1675, Zurich, Switzerland
    E11278, Josef Häfliger, Luzern, Switzerland
    85656, Stephen Reman, m.1792, North Carolina, USA
    200132, Emil Pommier b.1812, Unknown, France
    E4121, A. Plaschg, Kapfenstein, Austria (Bad Waltersdorf, Austria in YSearch)
    YSearch, Rouschmann Joho, b.~1375, Schinznach, Aargau, Switzerland
    YSearch, Gallus Hoesslin, b.~1500, Lindau, Germany
    YSearch, Santo Rossi, b.1730, Orgiano, Vicenza, Italy
    YSearch, Gasparella, Veneto, Italy

    Taken individually, these values are not indicative of FGC10543+ as they can be found across any haplogroup, so they are useful to predict FGC10543 only within L2. The only value that my kit shares with the others is DYS442=11, so it forms an older separation. Samples with off-modal DYS385a/DYS458 probably form another subclade of FGC10543. Those with DYS449=27 likely form an additional subclade below the DYS385a/DYS458 cluster. L2+ dominates in Ladin speaking populations (91.8% of overall U152) as per Coia et al (2013), and of further interest is that L2+ DYS385a >= 12 makes up a very large percentage of all males in the following populations:

    25.5% Fassa Valley
    20.5% Badia Valley
    19.5% Fiemme Valley

    If the early branching of L2 falls within the Bell Beaker time period, then the FGC10543 split may have occurred with the Polada Culture. The off-modal values of the samples that form the Raetian Culture seem to have developed much later and may have occurred during the Laugen-Melaun Culture (1350/1250 BC) which was an Urnfield Culture that stretched from NE Switzerland to NE Italy. The culture does not follow the northern Alps during the Hallstatt period and instead comes under Etruscan influence during the 8th century BC. During the 6th century BC, the focus once again shifts north towards the Inn Valley with the formation of the Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture which lasts until the conquering of Raetia by Augustus in the 1st century BC.

    Given all of this, I have chosen to retire my trusty Ligurian battle helmet avatar for that of a Fritzens-Sanzeno Bronze Age votive of the 6th century BC.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  3. #2
    Registered Users
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    5,765
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    Australia
    Ethnicity
    Italian Alpine
    Nationality
    Australian and Italian
    Y-DNA (P)
    T1a2b- SK1480
    mtDNA (M)
    H95a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-S8172
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b17

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Italy Ladinia Austria Tirol
    @Rocca

    did you get any markers form this paper
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0081704

    or this below which has the mtdna and ydna spreadsheets

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0056371


    a break down of one area from my first link is
    142 samples of three Ladiner valleys (Badia/Fassa/Gardena)

    10.5% K [15 samples, 10 are T ydna and 5 are L ydna]

    0.7% R1b-M269 [1 samples]
    8.4% R1b-L51 [12 samples]
    0.7% R1b-L11 [1 samples]
    28.1% R1b-U152 [40 samples]
    10.5% R1b-L21 [15 samples]
    4.2% R1b-U106 [6 samples]

    1.4% R1a [2 samples]

    0.7% I-M170 [1 samples]
    4.9% I1-M253 [7samples]
    0.7% I2-P37.2 [1 samples]

    5.6% G-M201 [8 samples]

    0.7% E-M35 [1 samples]
    2.8% E-V13 [4 samples]

    4.9% J1-M267 [7samples]
    0.7% J2-M172 [1 samples]
    10.5% J2a [15 samples]
    3.5% J2b [5 samples]


    The 28.1% R1b-U152 [2.1% U152* / 26.0% L2] meaning 92.5% of all U152 in Ladiner folks is L2;


    Edit: oops , you know about my post #1
    Last edited by vettor; 06-29-2014 at 07:25 PM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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     Agamemnon (07-01-2014),  Alpine Hominin (07-02-2014)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
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    3,794
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    Italo-Iberian
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    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Here are distribution maps of the Laugen-Melaun and Fritzens-Sanzeno Cultures...

    Last edited by R.Rocca; 06-30-2014 at 02:26 AM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (07-01-2014),  Alpine Hominin (07-02-2014),  palamede (06-30-2014)

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