Y-DNA N Bianbian of Shandong as a major ancient bearer of Japanese-like DNA

[East-Asia]

What is speculative? In any case, "coastal ghost component" which reached Devil's Cave did not leave traces of pottery artifacts which would be similar to influences of more southern mainland populations such as Xianrendong on Northern populations such as Bianbian. It is believed in China that the characteristics of Xianrendong pottery are different from the characteristics of the earliest Jomon pottery. So if the earliest Jomon pottery were the doing of "coastal ghost", it would be in any case of different origin than the Houli pottery which arose under the Xianrendong-like influence.

[talljimmy0]

What is speculative? In any case, "coastal ghost component" which reached Devil's Cave did not leave traces of pottery artifacts which would be similar to influences of more southern mainland populations such as Xianrendong on Northern populations such as Bianbian. It is believed in China that the characteristics of Xianrendong pottery are different from the characteristics of the earliest Jomon pottery. So if the earliest Jomon pottery were the doing of "coastal ghost", it would be in any case of different origin than the Houli pottery which arose under the Xianrendong-like influence.

Pottery is not people and genes are not languages. It can't be said for certain how populations thousands of years ago interacted materialistically besides their pottery, especially when there's still much to uncover. What we know to a certain degree is that is the Coastal Ghost connects genetically to with the Jomon, southern and northern coastal populations in East Asia, to the exclusion of Neolithic Shandong, which included inland southern components not shared with the aforementioned coastal groups. Without the missing pieces, it is quite speculative to make a direct leap from the Bianbian sample to present day Japanese.

[East-Asia]

There is a Japanese study "Tripartite structure" where Jomon component=100% and Neolithic Shandong has very little actual Jomon component in the Japanese study, while Jomon should include "Coastal ghost".
In the study that I cite the picture from, when "Japanese component"=100% than Bianbian gets the largest amount of the "Japanese component" of all samples except for modern Japanese.
So "Japanese component" is the component other than Jomon.
It is also obvious that "Japanese component" is found in other populations in East Asia which never spoke Japonic languages.

[MNOPSC1b]

Pottery is not people and genes are not languages. It can't be said for certain how populations thousands of years ago interacted materialistically besides their pottery, especially when there's still much to uncover. What we know to a certain degree is that is the Coastal Ghost connects genetically to with the Jomon, southern and northern coastal populations in East Asia, to the exclusion of Neolithic Shandong, which included inland southern components not shared with the aforementioned coastal groups. Without the missing pieces, it is quite speculative to make a direct leap from the Bianbian sample to present day Japanese.

Sorry, but I don't think Neolithic Shandong contained inland southern components. Neolithic Shandong samples were primarily Northern East Asian, and the few southern genomes they had were closely related to Neolithic Fujian, which is on the southeast coast of China.

[alienation]

I think there could be confusion surrounding what is “southern” in around the Yangtze delta region and the Haidai River coasts, that might as well be centered around ‘Yellow River LN’ or Yellow River MN and subsequent drift away from that from way back. It’s plain dishonest to overlook that

[MNOPSC1b]

I think there could be confusion surrounding what is “southern” in around the Yangtze delta region and the Haidai River coasts, that might as well be centered around ‘Yellow River LN’ or Yellow River MN and subsequent drift away from that from way back. It’s plain dishonest to overlook that

The thing is we don't have tested Neolithic Yangtse and Huai River samples so far, so we could only speculate about what those populations were like genetically. Right now the few southern components of Neolithic Shandong are modeled with Neolithic Fujian, but it could very well be the case that they were actually closer to Neolithic Yangtse.

Anyways, back to topic. I don't think the origin of Japanese and Koreans has anything to do with places further south of Yangtse. The origin of Japanese isn't a myth anymore, genetically speaking they are mostly made up of Neolithic Yellow River + Neolithic Amur River + Neolithic Jomon.

Okarina's new G25 analysis includes most of the ancient and modern Asian samples currently known. Until more samples come out, this is as far as we could get.



We can see that in the table Japanese and Korean did not score any Dai, Mlabri, Wa, or Laos_Hoabinhian, and this can already indicate that they are NOT closely related to inland South China and MSEA populations.

Japanese scored 6.0% Igorot and Korean scored 5.4%, it could be due to influences from the Coastal Ghost. But we shouldn't over-exaggerate its significance, since Han_Shandong and Han_Henan all scored higher Igorot than Japanese and Koreans, so the little Igorot component found among Japanese and Korean could also be due to influences from the Yellow River region.

Neither Japanese and Koreans scored any Amur_River_EN, but both scored a quite significant percentage of Nivkh, which indicates that their Amur component is likely related to the Nivkh people.

[alienation]

From the AR19k time span to the point of rising sea levels that shaped the Holocene as one knows it to be is quite confusing to say the least. But what stands is that there is a dearth of possible samples

[alienation]

The ancient maritime seafarers most likely were very smart… and could also possibly circumvent continuous land settlements by creating their own network of harbors and coves through navigable sea routes that only they could very intuitively traverse from the perspective of natural-born seafarers/navigators

This wouldn’t necessarily be unheard of in the northern waters as opposed to purely in between the South Pacific and Indian Ocean. Especially of particular provenience and curiosity during the Longshan period, the ability and the exact networks to do this may needed to have been established a bit earlier

[alienation]

Anyways, the Ando, Changhang, Yayoi and modern Japonic and Korean samples tend to score more so Gongguan or Igorot, “Cordilleran” than Xitoucun, Tanshishan or Atayal.

[MNOPSC1b]

Anyways, the Ando, Changhang, Yayoi and modern Japonic and Korean samples tend to score more so Gongguan or Igorot, “Cordilleran” than Xitoucun, Tanshishan or Atayal.

Do you have any proofs about this?