Uncle's 23andme and insights about the Toshavim of Morocco

[DEM4867]

Hey everyone!
So I think that at this point everyone here knows about my background, this time I am going to focus about my maternal side.
When I first took a DNA test few years ago people brought to my attention that my results were a bit north African/berber shifted compared to the average Moroccan Jew, few years after I tested my grandmother but her results were actually on the Sephardic side of Moroccan Jews and quite significantly less berber than me on G25 models. It made since because my grandmother family have traditions of late converso ancestry (from the early 17th century but it's hard to know for sure) and she even had full Spanish (100%) matches and many latin American ones.
My maternal grandfather always told us that he has real toshavi (and in addition some sephardic) ancestry, especially from his mom side (and it's quite rare to hear someone saying this because all Moroccan Jews I know tend to just claim the Sephardic side). He told us that they arrived to Morocco during Roman times and lived in the northern edge of the Sahara (medieval Sijilmassa area) ever since.
My grandfather passed away 5 years ago, but few weeks ago I decided to test my maternal uncle to see if something interesting comes up, and indeed I am a bit surprised and want to share those results with you.

First I'll start with my grandmother results:

Those are her original results from 4 years ago-



updated results-



Now 23andme have a problem of overestimating North African percentage for Moroccan Jews because their reference includes Moroccans with partial Jewish ancestry (which is very common, basically all of the original fassis and many other Moroccans from the big cities have tons of jewish ancestry). I think G25 gives better insight on that matter-

I think the more interesting part is the G25 results-



On all G25 models I ran my grandmother consistently scores 15% North African (for comparison I am about 24-25%). As you might expect my grandmother closest populations are Moroccan Jewish, Sephardic Jewish (referencing to ESJ, how much they are a proxy to 1492 Jews is up to debate as well) and all other NAJ populations from west to east.

Now compared to my G25 results-







Not drastically different, but I score higher on the North African component as well as traces of Sub-Saharan component. I am closer to their Moroccan Jewish reference, then other NAJ populations and only then their ESJ reference.

Now after teasing you for so long, my uncle results-


23andme-


On first glance not very different from his mom (my grandmother)- lower Spanish (expected) and European, higher NA, but not very different..

Now to G25-



Significantly higher Natufian, higher NA farmer than me (I estimate G25 models will give him around 27-28% North African which is more than 10% compared to his mom), lower anatolian farmer. It's as if his father and mother are of different ethnicities (but they technically aren't).




He is closer to Libyan Jews than to Moroccan Jews?

Next step would be testing my grandfather's brother who might be a good proxy for a mostly toshavi sample. I think we are going to find a subgroup of Moroccan Jews who are more levantine and north African in admixture compared to the mostly sephardic population of the big cities (many historical references state that most moroccan big cities didn't have significat Jewish population before the 1492 arrivals, it's mostly the very rural places who had significant(?) pre-existing population.

Just for references here are the places my uncle's grandparents came from-



So my grandmother and grandfather didn't even come from very different regions (their families were close even back in Morocco), it's more of a matter of lineages with my grandmother claiming more sephardic traditions and grandfather more Toshavi traditions (and apparently justifiably so)

[DEM4867]

G25 coordinates of all 3 of us if you run models please send here-

uncle_scaled,0.067156,0.152329,-0.029793,-0.062662,0.018773,-0.030678,-0.01034,-0.009,0.017998,0.018406,0.008769,-0.004796,0.010109,-0.000688,0.008958,0.002121,0.002217,-0.009755,-0.016215,0.006378,-0.007237,-0.020403,0.009367,-0.007109,0.005508

Grandmother_scaled,0.083091,0.148267,-0.02753,-0.060078,0.01231,-0.028168,-0.010105,-0.008307,0.009817,0.018224,0.00747,-0.004346,0.004162,0.002752,-0.003664,0.00411,0.00352,-0.003927,-0.017723,0,-0.001497,-0.015209,0.011585,-0.010483,0.001557

Me_scaled,0.063741,0.153345,-0.019987,-0.067184,0.010771,-0.02259,-0.008225,-0.002308,0.014112,0.020775,0.005846,-0.005245,0.002973,0,-0.003664,-0.016706,-0.009909,-0.00266,-0.011313,-0.004377,-0.00287,-0.009521,0.011092,-0.009519,0.002634

[Vinshlusen]

I will write more later but your uncle's Toshavi 23andMe results and G25 model but I just wanted to say how they really press the identification of North African Toshavim as being "just another" Western Jewish group, with a central component of East-Med-Levantine + South European combo, just like in any other Western Jewish group each with its own smaller satellite component around it (NA, Germanic, Italian etc). All come from a very similar, if not the same, population.

[DEM4867]

I will write more later but your uncle's Toshavi 23andMe results and G25 model but I just wanted to say how they really press the identification of North African Toshavim as being "just another" Western Jewish group, with a central component of East-Med-Levantine + South European combo, just like in any other Western Jewish group each with its own smaller satellite component around it (NA, Germanic, Italian etc). All come from a very similar, if not the same, population.

And I still don't think my uncle is a proxy to a toshavi person because his mom is pretty sephardic.
Next step would be testing my grandfather's brother and see what we get.

[Vinshlusen]

And I still don't think my uncle is a proxy to a toshavi person because his mom is pretty sephardic.
Next step would be testing my grandfather's brother and see what we get.

From what I have seen with Tunisian and Lybian Jews who are overwhelmingly less Sephardic compared to Morrocans and Algerians, in 23andMe the Spanish will go down and the Italian will go up, including among Toshavim without any recent Italian migration background (Livornese etc).

[Vinshlusen]

According the history recreated through the Western Jewish groups 23andMe results, it's as if Western Jews were "born" in Italy and there was some major unknown expulsion or departure event that sent them en masse in -all- directions, to Lybia, Tunis, Algeria, Morroco, Spain, South France, and more. There they might have met other older communities but they became the defining majority component. Hence Western Jews were born. Perhaps the barbaric invasions of Italy and the general depopulation of the Italian peninsula sent the Proto-Western-Jews flying?

Perhaps the best-known example of long-term urban decline is the "fall" of Rome, which took place between the second and sixth centuries AD. During this period, the city of Rome experienced a decline of population from around a million persons to about 30,000.

[Luso]

Very cool, thanks for sharing!

[DEM4867]

Comparison with Myheritage results-

Mine-

Grandmother-


Uncle-


For some reason I score really low on their North African jew category (considering I am a fully Moroccan Jew within recent generations).
For funny reason my uncle gets yemen as a community, god knows why.

[Ignis90]

Isn't the Aden Jewry more mixed/cosmopolitan compared to the bulk of Yemenite Jews? Might explain why this community appears, but the direction of the geneflow is towards Aden, not towards your uncle.

[DEM4867]

FTDNA

Mine-


Grandmother-


Uncle-



I mean... Ireland? really ftdna? I am not a big fan of the 23andme MENA portion but seriously if ftdna and myheritage don't do well with European heritage, it speaks volumes.

The only thing consistent is high level (25%+) of Italian DNA which is consistent with belonging to western(=Roman) Jewery